depends if your goin N/A or turbo and im going to have to agree with storminmatt on that one 100%, dont shortcut anything or you will end up paying for it in the end.





[Modified by JDM4DOOR, 5:43 AM 1/30/2003]

 

Does that 1.8mm really make that much of a dfference. A difference of 4 onehundredths in the r/s ratio dosn't seem that big to me but i'm no engine expert. Would someone care to elaborate(sp)?

 

Yes you really do notice it on how the motor revs... One of my friend's had an 84.50mm B18C with 11.5:1 JE slugs Portflow head, CTR IN cam, SK2 IN manifold, RC 310's, chipped P28 and a VAFC... that was in an EG on M&H Racemaster 22x9.5x13 slicks... It had a best of a 12.74@107 until it got jacked by this ****** that we know... He only had liability too and the ******* that stole his car sold all the parts, melted his block and cut his car up into lots of little pieces... Didn't do any good tho, we found out who it was and now the **** that stole it is dead... Not literally dead but we wanna kill him Anyways my other friend has a CRVTEC in his EK, just about everyone on here has heard about it so i'll be nice and short.. It has the same head as the Brian's motor that i just told you about except it's got a B20B with 84.25 JE 12.0:1 slugs, stock rods, ARP rod bolts, and a ITR ECU w/ VAFC... His best full interior is a 12.62@107 and has never been dynoed, only tuned by feel... I made a video awhile back with both of their cars and i'll cut it down just so you can see the difference in how they make power and rev... The GSR revs like nothing and the CRVTEC just has that torque... I like the CRVTEC better just because of the little bit higher compression but still I would take a B18C over a LS/CRVTEC anyday... B18C bored to 85mm w/ JE 13.5:1 slugs, Crower rods, Portflow head, SK2 stage 3 cams, RC 370's, and a chipped P28 running Honda S200 in a EG I'll put up the link right after i crop, render, and upload the vid... Peace

 

 

No it doesn't seem like much does it? I've wondered on this myself, and I think it may be more of a combination of the decreased piston speed, decreased cylinder wall sideloading, and the greater lubrication provided by the Vtec crank. Perhaps these combined with the girdle combine to allow the b18c to rev higher and/or last longer than the not-so-different b18a/b and b20 or frankenmotors. I don't know for certain, but I do believe that ls/Vtec & Cr/Vtecs(yes even those done right) have a higher failure rate and will require more frequent rebuilds. Perhaps Honda engineers had this in mind when they decided on the stroke of the b18c crank, I mean 1.8mm less is not all that much, but I like the comprimise of the b18c & b17a, more than the other B engines. Interesting how they chose what amounts to stroked b16s for both of their GSR powerplants. The b17 may well be an even better comprimise, than the b18c. I mean you do hear about allot of GSRs burning oil(mine included), and while some of these have leaking valve seals & no doubt are routinely driven in a "spirited" manner, often times it's piston ring failure. I have a damaged b16a1 block & b17a crank & rod combo that I'm looking forward to toying with. I'd like to bore it to 85mm, drop it into an LS/GS/RS/SE(not yet aquired), add in an si or GSR tranny, stir, and compare it to my 2l GSR. It should prove very interesting.

Sorry for the novel.

 

Here's the link to the vid... It's CRVTEC_vs._B18C.mpg vid... Nothing special but just watch the way the cars go through the cars make power and rev through the gears... I forgot to also mention that they are both running 99-2000 Si trannies with Quaife LSD's.... So the ONLY differences between their motor's were the blocks, compression (varied by 0.5:1), and ECU (both running VAFC's tho) http://engr.oregonstate.edu/~uyemuraa/Video If you wanna watch this the other vid on there it's just something my friend's and I did a few weekends ago when we were bored... I'm the lil asian kid that gets blasted... hahahaha Peace

 

Just in case you were wondering about that VW Rabbit that smote Chan on his second run, it's a gutted out trailed race car with a fully built VR6..... I'm not really impressed with it for what it is but yes it's pretty fast... I think his best to date is like an ~11.90sec.... The guy is a really good driver and very consistent so Chan was scared to race him ... hahaha Peace

 

let me ask you this.

1. Will a propperly built ls/vtec take regular city driving. Ex. 75 miles driven daily regular city driving??
2. Ball park figure, how much would a rightly built ls/vtec cost.
3. How effient are ls/vtec in gas comsuptions.

 

1. If you build an LSVTEC around the specs of say a normal GSR or ITR motor it will hold up just as any other DOHC VTEC motor would.. For daily driving there is really nothing different... Take a look at the block, the only things that matter and are really different are the crank, rods, pistons, no internal oil feed, the oil pump, and water pump... As for the crank, that's the point of building an LSVTEC (for the extra 1.8mm of stroke).... The rods will hold up fine (just as long as you aren't building a super high compression motor) and the only thing you would really want to worry about are the rod bolts... Swap them out for some ARP's and you'll be set. For the pistons if you are trying to build just a moderately built motor some P73-A0/00 or PR3's are very common... They will bump up your compression a bit higher than that of an ITR but if you choose to go higher you'll just have to worry about the tuning side... My friend's CRVTEC running a stock sleeved B20B runs 84.25mm JE 12.0:1 pistons on stock rods with ARP rod bolts... That just shows you how much the B18A/B B20B/Z rods will hold...
2. As for the price it just starts going up for the more power that you wanna make.... It's basically all controlled by what you wanna do to the bottom end... A higher compression LSVTEC is going to be like any other H/C motor... Once you get to say about 11.5:1 you'll probably want to upgrade the injectors which then takes some type of air/fuel controller... anything from a VAFC to Hondata... For about the price of a GSR you could build an LSVTEC that would probably generate more power... If you wanna be keep it cheap I would try to keep the compression lower... ~10.0-11.5:1, it just keeps the extra parts that you need down... I would give yourself atleast $4000-5000 just to be safe.. Maybe more maybe less...
3. As for the gas mileage it all depends on what you do power wise.. You build a higher compression motor and it's going to need more gas to make power.... therefore taking down the gas mileage...

If you wanted to build a fairly inexpensive okay power LSVTEC this is what I would do... I personally would spend a bit more and build one with higher compression which would be just as reliable once TUNED....
With a setup like this you could use all OE parts...

B18A/B block bored 0.25mm over
0.25mm over P73-AO (USDM ITR pistons)
ARP rod bolts
STOCK rods
VTEC oil/waterpump
You'll need the external oil feed line
A VTEC head, For this setup I would go with a PR3 (B16A, unported ITR/CTR) it flows better than a stock GSR head even tho I would rather use the P72
Toss some ITR/CTR cams in there and you'll basically have a cheap ITR head.
With this compression you'll be fine with stock injectors and there are serveral different ways to tune... I would also add an adjustable FPR, aftermarket fuel pump, etc... If going into an OBD2 car an ITR ECU would probably run this motor fairly well, a VAFC on top of that couldn't hurt either... In an OBD1 car I would just run a chipped P28 and a VAFC... At this point there is no need for Hondata but if you got money to waste then go for it...
For the tranny an ITR would probably be best (that's what I would use on any B series NA motor, w/ a Quaife LSD tho) A B16A or GSR tranny would work fine too, just not an LS... I would just go with an ACT clutch, if you want something with a pedal that feels stock for a lot of street driving then I'm sure you would be happy with an ACT Heavy Duty pressure plate and a 6 puck disk... I think I covered most of the main stuff and if i think of anything else i'll let ya know... If anyone else catches anything that i missed feel free to post it up... Peace

 

I wouldn't bother with the Vafc. Hondata is nearly the same price and both require wideband dyno tuning to be done right, but the Hondata allows far greater control.

 

thanks

 

When people say stock for stock...lsvtec makes more power than a gsr.....do they mean with the stock ls compression? If so, wouldn't the whp be nearly identical?

 

Awesome vid!

 

Peak power will come in earlier on an LS/Vtec setup than on a B18c. There is not necessarily more power, it just occurs earlier in the rev range. Another point of note is that in many cases people build an LS/Vtec because they're cheaper and/or they already have a B18a/b motor. So when they plunk their Vtec head on there, run oil lines, change ECUs, etc... they may or may not have changed the tranny. The LS tranny would be a rather sizeable disadvantage when compared to a GSR or S4C transmission when it came to nearly any type of racing or "fun factor", but may not be such a handicap on the dyno.

 

im not stupid and i would say gsr is better.
cr vtec / lsvtec..im weary about them (although crvtec is worse than ls/vtec imo)


[Modified by SiRkid, 6:31 PM 1/31/2003]

 

Someone called you stupid?

Weary? Leary? or wary?

Me too, though it would be fun to tinker with, though I'd prefer someone else was footing the bill. heh

 

no..im just saying before people respond with "your dumb"
ooopps..i mean wary! i added an e for some reason or my fat hands hit the e key before R..
anyways


[Modified by SiRkid, 7:41 PM 1/31/2003]

 

I think that the B18C1 is the best all around motor...power, reliability, cost, ease of swap, etc. There are people making power with both motors. I think both have the same potential, but it takes a little more to get the frank motor up to the C1 starting platform and that is designed, assembled, and tested by Honda as a high revving, VTEC motor.

If you want to just put a motor in and it be awesome from the get go...B18C1.
If you want an adventure, to get to know your motor inside and out and to have an more awesomer motor...Frank.

I wanted an adventure.

 

just cause you go with a c1 doesnt mean you cant learn and wont learn the insides and out of your motor

 

I guess I was applying my personal choice. If I would have swapped in a GSR...I would not have done all the internal work that I did on my crvtec cause the c1 would have been ready to go...for my purposes.

 

And herein lies the problem with the LS-VTEC. Most people just don't understand what it takes to build a motor well. Their idea of a 'good' motor is a VTEC head slapped onto a bone-stock B18A/B18B bottom end. It is this type of setup which has given the LS-VTEC a reputation for being such a firecracker. Also, even if prople DO build the bottom end, they don't do it right. Properly building a bottom end is a rather painstaking process that requires a VERY clean shop (MUCH cleaner than a typical dusty garage). If you don't have the money, expertise, or facilities to properly build a bottom end, DON'T do an LS-VTEC. Just buy a B18C1 or B18C5 instead. It will be cheaper in the long run.

 

interesting debate...and even more interesting considering i'm about to buy a built ls/vtec.

now this was built my kenji, so i know it was built correctly but in an ideal world i'd rather have a b18c or b18c5 bottom end. obviously honda knows what they're doing and builds their motors to be reliable for thousands of miles.

the bottom line, any motor can be reliable with the right amount of money spent, and with a good engine builder who knows what they're doing.

i'll keep everyone posted on this motor that i'm probably going to get, as it made 190-135 a few months ago.

 

here are the specs on the motor...and i do believe it was built correctly.

(i've done 6 swaps, but i haven't built a motor...yet...so i'm really not qualified to comment on this too a great extent...)

All machine profesionally done to spec
Integra B18B LS block with all new OEM Honda bearings
Endyn Roller Wave Pistons ( 12.2:1 )
Eagle Rods
Z-10 Block Girdle
SIR-2 B16A Head
Porflow titanium retainers
Port Flow valve springs
TODA Spec A cams
TODA Version 2 Cam Sprockets
Type R intake manifold
64 mm bored throttle body

 

Sounds pretty kewl to me. Is there a gearbox attached to that puppy? Have a tranny picked out for it?

 

yes, jdm itr transmission, fully rebuilt by acura using all new bearings and synchro's 9k miles ago.

toda clutch, toda flywheel.