While studying up on the archives over the past couple of days, I ran across this mod. I am coming up on 90k mile maintence. So I was looking for what needed to be done to my car. I found all of that. However, once I found out what I needed to do, I started researching what kinds of power adding mods I could do at the same time as the other maintence. Some people here have tried this with varying levels of success.

The general concensus is that it will give me about 5whp after I do it (I/H/T/E no ps/ac Nitrous). Thats pretty tempting since I will be replacing the old unit anyways. Some concerns have been mentioned about the reliability of the unit. Should I be really concerned about this? No one has mentioned anything about a falty one. Just paranoid people raining on others parades.

The other issue is that they are usually SO effecient that it takes forever to warm up the engine. Who has had one of these on thier car? How long is "FOREVER"? Couldn't I just buy a water pump with a lower effeciency rating? Like the meziere 20gpm pump? Is this low enough? I'd love to hear from some people that have done this. Otherwise I'm just going to do it and tell you guys about it. This is still my primary mode of trasportation, but I don't have to use it that much because I live in florida and can walk to school and work. I also plan on going to the track a lot next semester (like every week).

With that said, anybody have any other ideas to boost the whp while I have my car in pieces? Thanks!


[Modified by punzak, 8:26 PM 12/17/2002]

 

You have something wrong, the pump may be as efficient as anything you want, but the warm up proces will be the same, remember that your car has a thermostat and that i stops the water IN the engine so this one will get warmed, i always had this question, the water pump in the engine always pump water, but when the thermostat is closed the water pump kinda sends the water in a loop in the engine, don't know how the exterior water pump will do this, but that's i question i have. So for your warm up question, you are wrong, it will take the same amount of time to warm up your car, and you can't simply take out your water pump, i think you have to leave it in there but some people recomend on cutting the blades of, again, this is what i heard on another post about this. Let's see what other people has to say about this.

 

seems to me that as long as your thermostat isnt stuck open, then it wouldnt take very long to warm up the engine. by the way, are you talking about the aebs one? http://www.aebsracing.com/p20.html or which kit??


[Modified by 22lbGS-R, 2:34 AM 12/18/2002]

 

No, I'm talking about this one:

http://www.flatlanderracing.com/meziereimport.html

 

I have all the answers you need=
4 months ago I installed The Meziere Electric water pump on a b18c1 ... I live in Orlando too...

Install process= Pain in the ***...
Since you have to remove the stock water pump to install the dummy pully you will have to remove the Crank pulley ... which you could go about it by either doing this by locking the flywheel or by using the moroso crank lock tool you can buy for 70 bucks through Summit....
Clearences would be very tight if you tried to do it while the engine is in the car and it definetely will be a pain in the *** ....I did mine with the engine out so it was easier...

Overcooling the engine= YES, YES, YES!!!... THE Thermostat cannot help you at all ... you ARE REQUIRED to drill 2 3/8th holes in the thermostat to insure the electric water pump does not seize up because of no coolant flow....
YOUR CAR DEFINETLY WILL OVERCOOL upon startup if you simply leave the water pump on ...

Granted I HAve a Fluidyne radiator to help with my cooling, but I have to still get into my car and drive around for 3 minutes with absolutly No pump movement just to get my temperature up .. then switch the pump on for 30 seconds , then off of for 2 minutes , than on for 30 seconds , off for 30 seconds , on for 30 seconds .. ect....
A TOTAL PAIN IN THE *** ....

These past couple days it has been cold out .. 40-50F ... My electric water pump was on for maybe 5% of the time .. if not less ... This thing is really efficient and works really well at cooling your engine... I added 80% radiator fluid to 20% water just to attempt to try to decrease my cars cooling efficiency ... before I was running 80% water 20% coolant (because I raised the PSI in my coolant system with a Greddy radiator cap)....

Possible solution??? I purchased a CSI Water temp guage which allows said user to set a preset temperature for any accesories like a electric water pump to be turned on and off via a relay....
Problem solved? No more turning a switch on and off? No....
The CSI unit resets the temperature to 300 F everytime you step in the car .. so you have to reset the preset everytime ... not good for valet or handing the keys to your friend ... Solution= attach to a constant Hot volt so the guage never turns off .. power drain should be menial ....

Another problem ... The Guage seems to like picking up EMI and RF radiation in the engine bay via the water temp probe and wire ... CSI is aware of this problem and explain to the user that he/she needs to ground the outer layer of the coaxial cable on both sides of the Water temp sender wire ...
I did this , routed my cable in many different positions in my engine bay(as far away from the distributor as possible), I even went so far as to wrap aluminum around all the wire and probe to insulate it from this radiation.... NOTHING WORKS

So what happens to the guage when it starts freaking out because the interference gets picked up? It shuts off .... So you may be driving along .. and all of a sudden you notice your car starts overheating because your pump has been off for 10 minutes ... Or mabey you radiator hoses pop off and all of your coolant gets drained because the pressure in your coolant system is so high because of the overheating... This sometimes happens every 30 seconds or every 5 minutes ... completely random.. anytime.
The only way to rest the guage is to pull to the side of the road and turn your car off and on ....

Until I figure out to solve the EMI/Rf problems I will be stuck using a switch // and turning the water pump on and off again, on and off again, ect.....

Other problems ... Intake pipe, or KN filter might get in the way of Electric water pump which sits right next to the distributor on the lower radiator hose.

Some good things -- 3-5 whp gains throughout the powerband .. more up top...nice...
Car is really efficient at cooling and is great to cool down between runs at the track or pulls between the dyno...
Reliability is not an issue , this is a very simple 12 volt pump... well made, will last ...
Power drain not an issue ... this thing does not drain much power....

Some weird observations=
When cruising at constant speeds on the highway for longer periods of time air pockets can occur unlike the stock setup because of the placement of the electric water pump inline which will cause your car to run a little hotter than normal ...
solution speed up a little and slow down .. elimanating the pocket...

any other questions???

 

ok well, "We have teamed with Advanced Engine Breathing SYstems of San Diego to bring these exciting new pumps to a needy market." thats the AEBS kit i was talking about. my best friend and i are going through the same deal as he is. ill keep posted also. so the relay doesnt work huh? so much for plan b....

 

I am going to experiment with using a thicker coaxial cable rather than the one supplied with The CSI guage ...or mabey an inline filter to try an eliminate the EMI/RF interference ... I'll keep everyone posted .. tell me if you figure out how to solve this before I do ...

 

How about replacing the thermostat with a block off plate and experiment with different sized holes to restrict flow?
Or perhaps you could run the pump on less than 12 volts to slow the flow down.

 

If that works it would be great to have a voltage dial in-dash to control the flow of the pump.

 

ah... that sucks. Let me get this straight... You have to manually turn the water pump on and off? That is totally retarded. Where in Orlando do you live? I live by UCF. I'm a computer science major and the thought crossed my mind about getting some computer to control the water pump. Does anything like this exist? Any thoughts?

 

You can't experiment with different sized holes. The minimum sized hole allowed overcools the engine, any less will supposedly seize the pump.

The 12 volt idea sems good though...experiment with different resistors, or just get a variable one.

dasher, that's an awesome post, by the way.

Why do you bother with aftermarket temp sensors? Why not just use the stock one? Tap into the fan relay or something.

Just curious, did you get rid of your fan?

 

Yeah thats a great idea... Why didn't I think of that? Dasher let us know if you have tried this. Second, I'd like to met up with you to experience the water pump problems you've been having. Maybe that will help me know if I want to further pursue such an endevor... (I most likely will continue)

 

I have a house in Oviedo, 15 minutes North... We could meet up and discuss the problems ... email me or pm me for that ... (I went to UCF for Computer Engineering BTW... Im a computer nerd too ) ...

Earl... some good suggestions, but like Lsos said a restrictor plate would not work--One needs a variable thermostat so it could open up further when it get warm to allow for more flow and the size hole needed would be too small and seize the pump or certainely wear it down faster.... It is only a problem for the first 12 minutes of driving after that I have the electric water pump on 100% to keep it at slightly below normal operating temp, so one needs the increased flow from a thermostat being open all the way ... I tested my thermostat (In a pot of boiling water ) and it works fine too(its not opening up early)...

About the 12 volt suggestion... I'll probably give this a try... The only problem probably will be in the tolerances ... from my experience going from 12-11 volts would turn the pump off ... and would would need a more gradual change ... when the car is running the voltage is around 13.5 volts and 12.4 when the alternator is off ... so I would slowly need to go from 13.5 volts down to 11.9, 11.8, 11.7 ect.. this may be difficult... Another thing is the fact that its still a pain in the *** to sit in your car and slowly dial in the voltage as you drive, and you would have to play around with the **** for at least 12 minutes .... does not alieviate anything ...

Good suggestions anyway though ...

The correct way to do this is Connect the CSI meter to a constant Hot instaed of ACC so you do not have to reset the preset temp and would be comfortable handing your keys to someone else and to figure out how to solve the EMI/RF interference...
When the guage did work i Would here the relay "click" back and forth every 30 seconds for 8 minutes ... worked great while it worked ...

Ill keep everyone updated ...

 

I could have spliced the temperature sensor into the stock one (and probably wont get a cell light because Im obd1 -- 95GSR) .. but instaed tapped a sensor above the bleed screw connected to the upper radiator hose...
2 reasons ... I have a before and after temp to see the efficiency of the radiator... and the stock temp sensor would be closer to the distributor and would probably cause more problem since that is the source of most of it ...

I'll probably give it a try anyhow , when everything else is exhausted ...

 

Can you post pix of your set up so I can get a visual? Have you considered a Jabsco Water Puppy?

 

I'll take a couple snap shots with my digital camera and post them later tonight or thursday ... Jabsco water puppy??? Curious... what is this... an electric water pump??? I searched on their website and could not find any "water puppys."

If it is simply another Water pump than that would not solve the problem /// the problem is not the flow... you need that amount of flow after the car runs for 8-12 minutes to MAINTAIN stock operating temp... mine is a little below because of the fluidyne ...

The problem lies in controlling the flow at certain times .. can the water puppy do this ? Programmable? Thanks for the suggestion. Greatly appreciated...

 

I found some info on the water puppy... looks like a universal water pump.... that could be used for a car.. 200 dollars ... a good alternative for those who need to custom make an electric water pump for their car which AEBS and Meziere dont already manufacture... doesn't solve any problems however....

 

The stock setup allows coolant circulation without flow out to the radiator by way of the bypass in the thermostat housing. Unfortunately the electric pump is outside of this loop on the wrong side of the thermostat. The best would be to modify the water pipe between the thermostat housing and the stock waterpump to allow the electric pump to be insterted in line at that point. This would allow the thermostat to stay stock and allow circulation within the block until the thermostat opens. How hard could it be to modify the waterpipe to allow this when we're already talking $300+??

 

intresting idea... the only place that could possibly work would be inline on the upper radiator hose ( an electric water pump near the stock location would be impossible ) , and even then this would be to tight to fit in this location.. the water pump would have to be smaller ....

if the electric water pump was locate before the thermastat so it pushed against the thermostat instead of pulling water through it it would still place strain on the electric motor by either not keeping it primed or by strain from the motor exerting force against the thermostat with no release ...

not feasable for several reasons .. but good idea...

 

Here's a site for $126 for the Puppy. Has a pix also
http://www.go-rv.com/online/1060/sho...ils?catid=1354

Excuse me for jumping into something i have little experience with but I don't understand why you keep saying the pump will be running dry or need to be primed? If I understand right you are talking about a pump that has a seperate motor from the impeller portion. It would have sealed bearings and can spin the impeller even without water. Basically I may be describing how the Jabsco Water Puppy works, and am not familiar with the pump you guys are talking about. Just being in the cooling system should keep any pump primed. Whether the pump is pushing coolant in the system or against a close thermostat, I don't think the pump really cares. Explain why I am wrong about this.
BTW, I'm getting ready to do a water to air intercooler system, so am just trying to learn all I can about pumps.

 

okay, ive got a little idea. how about a bypass hose that goes from the upper hose to the lower hose, that has semi- block-off plates in it, so it only lets a small amount of coolant through (enough so the pump doesnt mess up, but not so much so that coolant bypasses the engine still when the thermostat opens up. tuned properly, this would eliminate the long warm-up process without any eletronics messing with anything. this is basically how the stock setup is, anyways. i think this is how were gonna try and do it.


[Modified by 22lbGS-R, 11:38 PM 12/18/2002]

 

From experience, the more resistance an electric motor has, the faster it heats up. Maybe too much resistance would overheat the pump motor....kind of ironic if you think about it.

 

I would think it would be just as hard on the motor to push a whole volume of water as it would be to sit there and spin the same bit of water around and around.
Thats my opinion but I could be wrong

 

a friend of mine has one if these and it makes the car act really different depending on the weather. your totally right about the switch though he has to start the car with the switch off then turn it on once its warmed up. then if its left on if your not gunning it all the time it will fall low enough in temp so the heat wont even work at all. you basically have to watch the temp guage constantly and keep flipping the pump on and off or run the car cold. i know hes forgotten a few times and looked down at a peggen temp gauge!

i think the best solution would be to get the electric temp switch idea working since any mechanical type thermostat has to be drilled for the pump to operate properly. what kind of coax cable are you using? i find it hard to belive that it is impossible to keep RF out (i work on military airplane electronic equipment) and theres all sorts of RF in there... let me know what kind of wiring your using and im sure i can find you something that will work. ill give you the wire free to test it (you pay shipping) so we can figure a solution out.

with the proper grounding, shielding and a clean ground you can get rid of that pesky RF noise


[Modified by JCushing, 9:51 PM 12/18/2002]

 

If fluid is being moved by the impellers on an electric water pump it produces far less strain on the electric water pump than when the pump is trying to move the water but can't because of a closed thermostat...... this is simple fluid dynamics ... surrounding water swirls and "grabs" the water close to it to help pull the water through the pump.... If the thermostat is closed it would create air pockets which would quickly overheat the pump and ruin it....this is a well established concept when dealing with any water pumps.... they usually have bleed valves and need to be primed ... air bubbles and pockets create friction ...

The fluid surrounding a propeller also acts to support and aid the propellor in a suspension... air does not support the propellor as well....

The electric water pump is not pushing the water against the thermostat either , but rather pulling it through the thermostat ... another reason why the pump is positioned on the lower radiator hose instead of the upper is because if the electric water pump pushed against the thermostat their would be more strain on the motor and it would burn out... your stock pump doesn't have to worry about this since their is no worrys about an electric motor...



[Modified by dasher, 10:26 PM 12/18/2002]