I'm in the process of putting in used JDM ITR pistons into my engine and am wondering if shipping them out to swaintech for ceramic coating would benefit an NA motor.
And would ceramic coating them eliminate the need for "deburring" the pistons?

 

Ceramic and alumium/steel have two different heat expansion rates. Would that even work? I'm curious too.

 

i would think it helps in durability and it would maybe add .25 HP because it will maintaing the temps where they belong, off course, this is all my opinion.
It would be cool to hear somebody actually explaining about it.

BTW: if you see at the top racers (drag, track, etc..) they have the combustion chamber coated and sometimes their pistons as well, OH! and remember that some motorcycles come with pistons coated.

 

Interesting, I want more, IMPUT, IMPUT!

Bump...

 

Look up the thermal conductivity of 8 wt% Yttria stabilized Zirconia and Aluminum and you will see where the advantage is.

 

reflecting the Heat into the chamber? come on! tell us, i don't have time to surf the net for that!!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 976 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Interesting, I want more, IMPUT, IMPUT!

Bump... </TD></TR></TABLE>


try http://www.hpcoatings.com their very similar to swain coating. they been around since 1982.

 

Quoted from HPCoatings.com
"With a bond strength of 10,000 psi, this coating's non-porous ceramic matrix improves flame travel and combustion efficiency as well as reduces oil temperature and prevents carbon buildup. HPC's TBC process also prevents excessive heat from
reaching the piston rings reducing radial tension loss due to the ring overheating."

Quoted From Swaintech.com
"The coating holds heat inside the combustion chamber so more usable horsepower can be extracted from it by making the gaseous products of combustion expand more. The coating also protects the base aluminum by insulating it from intense, damaging combustion heat. Parts are protected from high temperature oxidation, and heat transfer is reduced by spreading the heat over the entire coated surface, encouraging proper flame travel, and eliminating hot spots and detonation. Less heat conduction through the pistons, wrist pins and rods keeps the crank and bearings cooler and oil temperature lower."

From what they say on the sites, it looks like a good idea.
Swaintech's price is around 30-40 dollars for each piston dome.
I don't know HPC's prices but I will e-mail them on monday b/c of the holiday today.

If anybody has any more info or personal experiences with coating pistons tops let me know. I especially want to know if this might cause any clearance problems w/ JDM ITR pistons and cams w/ 12mm+ lift

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DeeSeeToo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I especially want to know if this might cause any clearance problems w/ JDM ITR pistons and cams w/ 12mm+ lift
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I highly doubt it, cuz the coatings are just like 0.1 MM that's nothing.
Good luck.

It would be fun to try how much it affects on oil Temp on the same engine, like assambling the engine with all the parts except for the coated pistons, but with the same compression, and take note of the oil temps and HP and all the variable, and the assambling the engine with the coated pistons and see the difference

Off course it will cost money, but at least we'll know if the 40 bucks for dome is worthy

 

funny how the companies toot their own horn, but haven't seen documented results from anybody INDEPENDENT with honda/acura motors...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ruby Civic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">funny how the companies toot their own horn, but haven't seen documented results from anybody INDEPENDENT with honda/acura motors...</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's true, but the horn they toot sounds about right, besides, like i said before, some manufacturers like Suzuki and yamaha use coatings on their engines, so if they use it, there has to be one reason. don't you think?

EDT: doesn't the ITR has coatings??

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GZERO &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">reflecting the Heat into the chamber? come on! tell us, i don't have time to surf the net for that!! </TD></TR></TABLE>

You are on the net! Go to Google and type. Geez.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GZERO &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
EDT: doesn't the ITR has coatings??</TD></TR></TABLE>

The JDM ITR/CTR pistons have a coating on the skirts stock. But the coating rubs off easy. On my pistons the coating on the skirts already have rubbed off some.

 

wasnt there a SCC article about them, or turbo or sumthin. They decrease the crankcase temperature by like 40 degrees. Theres also coatings for turbo manifolds to lower engine bay temperature, header coatings, intake coatings to keep the air cool, all sorts of stuff.

 

I think there are some drawbacks to this coating. When you think about it; ITR's, GSR's, etc. have oil squiters that squirt oil at the back of the piston to help cool them which helps prevent detonation. If this coating was used, the oil that hits the pistons would do very little to prevent detonation which may increase your chance of detonation.

You aslo have to consider the fact that people have to run rich to help cool the mix inside the combustion chambers. If there were more heat, you would have to run more rich.

This is what I think. Does anybody agree/disagree with my opinion?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by joe_bocc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think there are some drawbacks to this coating. When you think about it; ITR's, GSR's, etc. have oil squiters that squirt oil at the back of the piston to help cool them which helps prevent detonation. If this coating was used, the oil that hits the pistons would do very little to prevent detonation which may increase your chance of detonation.</TD></TR></TABLE>

True, but the coating won't reduce temp enough to dissable the squirters, the squirters will still do their job of cooling the piston.
The temps will be more linear, which is something good.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by joe_bocc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You aslo have to consider the fact that people have to run rich to help cool the mix inside the combustion chambers. If there were more heat, you would have to run more rich.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Good argument, and i'm sure there's an answer, i don't know it.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by joe_bocc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This is what I think. Does anybody agree/disagree with my opinion?</TD></TR></TABLE>

You're right, there has to be drawbacks, and that's what the guy that made the thread wants to know, and i would like to know it too.

The article on SCC was pretty good, it was on the nissan 300ZX car they where building, this is where i learned a lot about coatings, i know coatings for stuff like turbo manifolds and headers is awesome, and i would think that something good about coating the piston dome would be that it will reduce or even make dissapear the hot spots.
I know there are lot's of info on the net, but a lot of people have made projects with this type of things and they have Real world stats and opinions.

 

i have just gone with ctr pistons and the "burn" surface doesn't seem to retain this coating...

i always hate to use or see the argument: "x uses it so it must be good" . i also saw the scc article and was not overly impressed as it still seemed to amount to speculation and assertion, and not necessarily reflecting what we might see in honda/acura apps.

this is not to say it might not be a good thing, just that there are not good published before and after studies..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ruby Civic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
this is not to say it might not be a good thing, just that there are not good published before and after studies..</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is what I also think, but i have hopes it does good to engines.

 

Izuzu has used the coating on pistons in their turbo diesel motors, but pre-ignition is not possible in a diesel due to the use of direct injection. Higher combustion chamber temps are good for them.

Porsche used it in the exhaust ports of the 944 turbo to keep the exhaust temps up to get the turbo spinning quicker and reduce the heat in the head.

I don't recall seeing much use of ceramic piston coatings on N/A motors. In theory, if more heat stays in the combustion chamber instead of transferring to the piston, more power can be made. The engine would have to be properly tuned to make use of it though.

 

re:coating the pistons--The advantages could be minimal, or great depending on how you are setting up your motor. I.E. airflow(I/H/E, Throttle body, Intake Manifold, headwork, cams), compression, fuel pressure, ignition setup. In other words, if you are simply putting the pistons in the motor, with minimal upgrades, it will help, mostly to keep the pistons cleaner, because of a more complete burn, and as you add more fuel, air, spark, the advantage becomes greater; because of the factor most have spoken of in this thread, heat. Which, if you drive hard, and plan on running at or close to redline most of the time, if you live in a warm climate, etc. would definately be worth the scrilla.


RE: oem interior fog switch--I have a whole setup, lights, wires, and interior switch with wiring to the 1st plug, just sitting in my garage....still interested?? email me @ speedsmith@surewest.net

 

Just out of curiosity what does swain charge for 4 pistons to do the tops?
I do these coatings at work to all my personal stuff and have done some for a few buddys.I should hopefull have access to titanium nitride coatings by the end of the year too.
Heres a link to my work. https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=498735

 

And btw , the piston skirt dry film if fluid retaining so it actually holds more oil to the piston skirts for added lube,even if it appears to rub off it is actually bonded to the skirt. And Joe you are incorrect about these coatings affecting cooling , the thermal barrier will keep the pistons cooler and the squirters squirt the bottom of the pistons for cooling , the dry film doesnt get applied to the bottoms, however we can spray the bottoms with a oil shedding coating which makes the oil drip off quicker to allow cooler oil from the squirters to do its job .

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tbone &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And btw , the piston skirt dry film if fluid retaining so it actually holds more oil to the piston skirts for added lube,even if it appears to rub off it is actually bonded to the skirt. And Joe you are incorrect about these coatings affecting cooling , the thermal barrier will keep the pistons cooler and the squirters squirt the bottom of the pistons for cooling , the dry film doesnt get applied to the bottoms, however we can spray the bottoms with a oil shedding coating which makes the oil drip off quicker to allow cooler oil from the squirters to do its job .</TD></TR></TABLE>thats cool..!