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Front Control Arm / Camber Adj (EF Hatch)

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Old 06-04-2009, 07:08 PM
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Default Re: Front Control Arm / Camber Adj (EF Hatch)

Try this website for all your questions on Caster camber and toe
http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:21 PM
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Default Re: Front Control Arm / Camber Adj (EF Hatch)

Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post
The inner 2" of that tread is toe wear.

Explain how else my tires when I was running -2.8 front camber still lasted 30K+ miles?

Because u probably had a tire that was rated for 30K+ miles... and u probably could see minor camber wear when u replaced them. Some vehicles are set to have negative camber from the factory to improve handling and stability, but excessive camber (like if you lower a vehicle) will cause abnormal tire wear on one side of the tread. Seriously though, why would you need camber adjusters if there wasn't such thing as camber wear? And why are there sooo many technical sites online that talk about camber wear if it wasn't a problem?
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Old 06-05-2009, 04:51 AM
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Default Re: Front Control Arm / Camber Adj (EF Hatch)

Originally Posted by jimbo89 View Post
Because u probably had a tire that was rated for 30K+ miles... and u probably could see minor camber wear when u replaced them. Some vehicles are set to have negative camber from the factory to improve handling and stability, but excessive camber (like if you lower a vehicle) will cause abnormal tire wear on one side of the tread. Seriously though, why would you need camber adjusters if there wasn't such thing as camber wear? And why are there sooo many technical sites online that talk about camber wear if it wasn't a problem?
Because camber wear is a myth really, and those sites have either bought into that myth, or they're trying to sell you camber-adjustable parts to help perpetuate that myth.

And the tires I'm talking about were W-rated summer performance 205/45-16 tires that lasted 30K+ miles even with -2.8 camber. I know of other people that run as much as -4 camber, but with correct toe settings, and they report fairly even tire wear also. When I had to replace my tires, the tread was a bit thinner towards the inside edge, but the tread was still worn past the wear bars all the way across.

If you have SUPER-thin sidewalls, you might get a bit more uneven tire wear, but modern radial tires with flexible sidewalls allow the tread to sit flat on the ground, despite them being leaned in a bit.

Believe me when I say, toe wears tires, not camber. I've been running noticeable negative camber for over 170K miles, and in that time I've worn through MAYBE 5 sets of tires.
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Old 06-05-2009, 08:19 AM
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Default Re: Front Control Arm / Camber Adj (EF Hatch)

ya your probably right, camber is a big conspiracy...
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Old 06-05-2009, 10:09 AM
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Default Re: Front Control Arm / Camber Adj (EF Hatch)

Maybe not a conspiracy but if the OP wants to waste $225 and get worse arm for inner fender/shock tower clearance then he can. But why even turn to the forums for help if he is not gonna take the advice given. There are testimonials for both sides of the ball but if the both end with the same result then why spend the $$? Also IMHO I wouldn't run any thing that crucial to my safety built by Ebay!
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Old 06-05-2009, 10:14 AM
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Default Re: Front Control Arm / Camber Adj (EF Hatch)

yeah I have aftermarket OEM replacement front UCA's that were only $80 for the pair off eGay, and man are they a POS. The bushings squeak like hell and the ball joints are popping when I turn the front wheels. Had them for about 2 years now, and finally just spent the $200 on brand new OEM arms from Carland Acura. Can't wait to put them on.
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Old 06-05-2009, 10:22 AM
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Default Re: Front Control Arm / Camber Adj (EF Hatch)

Originally Posted by STOCK_SOHC_DX View Post
Maybe not a conspiracy but if the OP wants to waste $225 and get worse arm for inner fender/shock tower clearance then he can. But why even turn to the forums for help if he is not gonna take the advice given. There are testimonials for both sides of the ball but if the both end with the same result then why spend the $$? Also IMHO I wouldn't run any thing that crucial to my safety built by Ebay!
Not sure if a lot of you race as I've been road racing for 3 years now (SCCA ITC, Honda Challenge, 944 Spec). Us racers want adjust ability in our suspension and alignment so we can fine tune it to our liking and sometimes set up the car for certain tracks. I kinda know what I'm doing and want some flexibility in setting up my suspension to where I like it for my daily driver as I will occasionally take it to the track when I instruct.

As this post has gotten way off topic and into some kind of pissing match - I asked a simple question. Does anyone have any experience with $50 ebay cheapo UCAs? These are not the same as the $220 Skunk2 Pro series UCAs. I'd think the Skunk2 UCAs are of very high quality and would suffice as an OEM arm replacement.

Now, if you think I'm wasting money then that's purely your opinion. I'd prefer to have my car with the adjust ability I demand and not what you would / wouldn't.

For the record I'm going to splurge on the Skunk2 units (they are actually cheaper than getting new UCAs and bushings from a wholesale dealer).
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Old 06-05-2009, 10:28 AM
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Default Re: Front Control Arm / Camber Adj (EF Hatch)

Yeah I hold the opinion that camber kits are really only useful for those who wish to add MORE negative camber for track purposes. If that's what you need then go for it.

Also in my case, OEM arms were actually cheaper than the Skunk2 units, and they come complete with bushings and ball joints. I just ordered OEM front upper arms for about $200 shipped.
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Old 06-05-2009, 10:39 AM
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Default Re: Front Control Arm / Camber Adj (EF Hatch)

ive heard (on other countless threads here on honda tech if you just searched) that those $50 camber arms from ebay dont even come with grease in the balljoint... hows that for quality.

anyone who knows my 14000 posts knows im no skunk2 fan. but they really did the extra innovation in redesigning the sliding balljoint camber arm to fit the EF and fix the whole loose bolts issue by flipping the fastener and using a clamping plate.

they really are the best option out there.

but there ARE other ways to get negative camber, if THATS the direction you want. such as shimming the anchor bolts/bushings downwards for more static camber and camber gain. or bending the arm.

we use newer SPC eccentrics on our H4 civic. they come black and with a larger chrome eccentric. i do NOT recommend this UNLESS you want to take the effort to cut up the upper arm to make these things fit and have full rotation of the eccentric. then you actually get a crap load of negative camber and huge camber gain curves at the bottom setting.

if ive lost you in this conversation, then you should just pay your money and buy the skunk2 arms if you can find them. i hear theyre hard to come by...
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Old 06-05-2009, 10:46 AM
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Default Re: Front Control Arm / Camber Adj (EF Hatch)

Originally Posted by Tyson View Post
ive heard (on other countless threads here on honda tech if you just searched) that those $50 camber arms from ebay dont even come with grease in the balljoint... hows that for quality.

anyone who knows my 14000 posts knows im no skunk2 fan. but they really did the extra innovation in redesigning the sliding balljoint camber arm to fit the EF and fix the whole loose bolts issue by flipping the fastener and using a clamping plate.

they really are the best option out there.

but there ARE other ways to get negative camber, if THATS the direction you want. such as shimming the anchor bolts/bushings downwards for more static camber and camber gain. or bending the arm.

we use newer SPC eccentrics on our H4 civic. they come black and with a larger chrome eccentric. i do NOT recommend this UNLESS you want to take the effort to cut up the upper arm to make these things fit and have full rotation of the eccentric. then you actually get a crap load of negative camber and huge camber gain curves at the bottom setting.

if ive lost you in this conversation, then you should just pay your money and buy the skunk2 arms if you can find them. i hear theyre hard to come by...
Thanks for answering my concern about the cheap eBay units and problems people have had. Another thanks to the other poster who went back to OEM units. That is the info I was looking for whether they were worth it.

I thought about shimming it to save money (I used to race Sam Myer's old H5 Civic until this year) and I did what I could within the rules to get some better negative camber - car was set up very well though so Sam knows his stuff.

The Skunk2 UCAs look like they are high in availability and I'd prefer to have a quick and easy way to adjust camber - but still have the knowledge that it is strong and secure and "doesn't squeak".
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Old 06-05-2009, 10:50 AM
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Default Re: Front Control Arm / Camber Adj (EF Hatch)

Originally Posted by jaje View Post
Not sure if a lot of you race as I've been road racing for 3 years now (SCCA ITC, Honda Challenge, 944 Spec). Us racers want adjust ability in our suspension and alignment so we can fine tune it to our liking and sometimes set up the car for certain tracks. I kinda know what I'm doing and want some flexibility in setting up my suspension to where I like it for my daily driver as I will occasionally take it to the track when I instruct.

As this post has gotten way off topic and into some kind of pissing match - I asked a simple question. Does anyone have any experience with $50 ebay cheapo UCAs? These are not the same as the $220 Skunk2 Pro series UCAs. I'd think the Skunk2 UCAs are of very high quality and would suffice as an OEM arm replacement.

Now, if you think I'm wasting money then that's purely your opinion. I'd prefer to have my car with the adjust ability I demand and not what you would / wouldn't.

For the record I'm going to splurge on the Skunk2 units (they are actually cheaper than getting new UCAs and bushings from a wholesale dealer).
Done a few auto-x events but nothing as serious as you. I agree with Pat if your gonna be using for tracking than it would make sense to add more camber if need be, but why even consider Ebay. Also if I were in your shoes I would pick up the Skunk2's because of the parts availability and they have been around the block a few times not to mention their customer service is top notch.
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Old 06-05-2009, 10:52 AM
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Default Re: Front Control Arm / Camber Adj (EF Hatch)

i really dont hold skunk2 in high regard tho. im going to guess those balljoints are no better than the $50 ones, but at least they come greased.... parts suppliers in china can be many and few, but from what ive seen, that can be a bad thing as either part quality can change by supplier or theyre all the same crappy quality, some are just marked up more. and you really cant tell because they all copy each other and can never tell how far down the cloning chain it is.

skunk2 just offers a better solution overall. i just wont attest to their longevity, especially on track.
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Old 06-05-2009, 11:00 AM
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Default Re: Front Control Arm / Camber Adj (EF Hatch)

You guys should see the dilemmas us 944 racers have with the mookeah cheapo $200 eBay camber plates versus the $500-$800 a quality unit (weltmeister or ground control etc.) typically costs. Several guys have the cheapo units and after a year they haven't failed and seem to be in good working order.
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Old 06-05-2009, 11:15 AM
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Default Re: Front Control Arm / Camber Adj (EF Hatch)

Originally Posted by jaje View Post
IIRC, if you lower the car and do not adjust the camber it will wear out tires faster. Negative camber does that as it shifts the area of traction to the inside edge of the wheel. Just like how having too much toe in will wear a car's tires faster.
to answer this again, it really is the toe that kills the inside edge of the tire.

fine, camber contributes to uneven tire wear.

but the answer to "when i lower my car, what causes the tire wear?" is hands down the change in TOE, not the change in camber. it is the change in toe CAUSED BY the change in camber and the ride height that causes that uneven tire wear due to lowering a vehicle. just as there is "dynamic camber", there is "dynamic toe". unfortunately, the change in camber is the more noticeable change, the toe change is hardly visible, but is so much more sensitive to change. fixing the camber does not solve the problem. fixing the toe, by simply getting an alignment, fixes all the uneven tire wear horrors that is associated with lowering a car.

if ppl want to jump up and down and say CAMBER WEARS TIRES. fine. but its the toe you want to fix and pay attention to because its far more significant.

this is because of constant slip angles and heating of the tire as it squeezes to one side over the contact patch. the worst of it being at the edge of the tire. i could draw graphs of a small section of rubber and what a slip angle is, but just think of it like this, whats going to wear your shoes more, dragging your feet, or walking? exceeding slip angles is like dragging your feet, in fact its just like doing a burnout. uneven camber is just walking with more pressure on the inside of your ankles. youre not going to wear it out that quickly.

tire sidewalls flex. its a pneumatic, elastic piece of rubber. the contact patch will conform to the surface even if its at a tilted camber angle. but consider this, when simply rolling, a tire should last 30-60 thousand miles. NOT 1000 miles before its to cords as we've all seen.

at stock ride heights and stock camber angles of like 1 degree, if the toe is off, you WILL see the same uneven tire wear. logic then says its not camber thats the issue...

at lowered ride heights and large camber angles of like 3 degrees, if toe is set properly, you dont see uneven tire wear. this is the empirical data that patrick is trying to share, as well as many others including myself.

but in my 14000 posts, ive created about 200 other posts saying this same thing in one way or another. im sick of it.

ppl go spend money on making your handling worse and remove all that "bad" negative camber.... or just do it right and align your toe after lowering your car.
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Old 06-05-2009, 11:22 AM
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Default Re: Front Control Arm / Camber Adj (EF Hatch)

Originally Posted by jaje View Post
You guys should see the dilemmas us 944 racers have with the mookeah cheapo $200 eBay camber plates versus the $500-$800 a quality unit (weltmeister or ground control etc.) typically costs. Several guys have the cheapo units and after a year they haven't failed and seem to be in good working order.
that may be wherein lies this disconnect.

944's have macpherson strut suspension. i dont have to tell you how awful controlling the camber can be on that car. and how odd the camber curves can be. it may be that with mac strut cars, camber can be a bigger issue. it may also be that because of the larger degree of camber gain (positive and negative) that toe is affected even more... something to consider.

but we are talking honda double wishbone suspension of 88-2000 civics and integras. where camber curves are well defined and controlled because it is independent of the shock. we're talking from our experience with these cars, not some ASE certification textbook that has general rules of cars from the 1950's to trucks and vans that has sweeping generalizations of common suspension and tire issues. but even in those same textbooks, they will say toe is also an issue and alignments are necessary for proper tire wear.
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Old 06-05-2009, 11:24 AM
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Default Re: Front Control Arm / Camber Adj (EF Hatch)

Tyson - you're going to now have to change your statement to "but in my 15,000 posts" b/c of this thread.
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Old 06-05-2009, 11:26 AM
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Default Re: Front Control Arm / Camber Adj (EF Hatch)

there will be more threads like this..... i assure you.

we call "camber wear is a myth" because theres so many ppl with this common misconception that camber is the problem and dont understand toe changes too, because they dont see the toe change. and thanks to magazines whose advertisers sell camber kits and just general misguided advice for hondas, this argument will continue forever...

its like "passive rear steering" on 88 CRX's only. now THATS a myth.

Last edited by Tyson; 06-05-2009 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 08-31-2011, 06:29 PM
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Ok I have a 91 civic si which is a hatch. The car had some 18 inch rims before I got it I took em off threw on some 14in steelies and now the front passanger tire has alot of positive camber(sticks out on top) so in an attemp to fix it I bought skunk 2 upper a arms but now I can get it straight if I move the ball joint all the way back, but I wanna **** my tires(negative camber) and I can only do it on the drivers side so I also bought the front lower control arm but I havent gotten em yet, I really dought it will fix the problem, so is there anything else that can cause this that I can change to fix. I have a b series swap in it, cut springs for now, and the skunk 2 uca's and bout to put new lca's. Please guys help.
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Old 08-31-2011, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by jaje View Post
I haven't bought these as of yet. I've only done the entire rear suspension (converted over to rear discs and put in all new bushings), new lower arm and adj camber and toe arms.

I also put in Skunk2 sport coilovers at all 4 corners. As I upgrade the front brakes to 11 inch from the 9.5 inch. While I do that I also want to upgrade the front suspension by replacing all bushings, ball joints, etc. and add a camber adjustment piece.
Hey off the subject that rear disk did u have to switch the brake booster, or master cylinder, or proportion valve to get a stiff pedal. I replaces the prop valve but pedal goes down to floor any input or tips will help me alot thanx.
I have skunk 2 uca's look nice and seem seem strong and reliable. Its worth it if u got the $$$ if not blox has good one cheaper in price on ebay idk about on the site.
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:58 PM
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Default Re: Front Control Arm / Camber Adj (EF Hatch)

Hey man I don't know if anyone's answered yet, but I've had the eBay control arms on my EF hatch and I have not had a single problem with them. I am astonished by them.
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