Tyson, Tyson, Tyson......


I hate to nit-pick, but I'm gonna. Chris Shenefield should hardly be considered the "standard" as far as National Champion autocrossers go. I like to call him an "exception to the rule." Yes, the man can drive, and drive fast, but his setup knowledge is nothing compared to the veterans of the sport. And he won his championship in the class's fledgling years.

Just look how basic his setup is. Put his setup up against someone such as Andy Hollis's current setup and the difference will be night and day.

I don't doubt that shock tower bars (which would be the correct verbage because no honda manufactured from 88-00 can with Mac Struts) have some effect on handling, I just don't agree with the degree of the effect, especially on street driven, barely set-up hondas.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by codenamezero &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">strut bars stiffen your chassis, and thus, improve the weight transition between front and back... the effect of a strut bar is multiply when you use it with a stronger/bigger swaybars (front or back) even more if your suspension is upgraded.

and those of you who say don't spend more than 20$ on a strut bar because they don't do jack ****... it is BECAUSE you spend 20$ on those CRAP bar, that is why they don't do jackshit...

http://www.team-integra.net/fo...Topic

I didn't spend a lot of money into bars, but i got both REAL JDM ITR STRUT bars (front & back) for about 100$ and i must say, they do more the jackshit.</TD></TR></TABLE>

so if i spend $350 on a pair of spoon F and R STB's, will it make me faster? something tells me that all it'll do is make my pocket lighter.

i'm not sure what the difference between a $150 strut bar and a $20 strut bar is, other than the price tag. How are the strut towers deflecting when the car is midcorner? what kind of forces are we dealing with? are they high enough that a $20 stb will buckle, but a $150 one will not? can we resolve the resultant force vectors to ascertain whether the slenderness/design of a $20 stb is too high, whereas the slenderness/design of a $150 one is sufficient to prevent buckling and the towers from deflecting?

if i'm spending that much money on a bar that i could fab myself with an arc welder and some scrap metal, i KNOW i'll feel faster--and it's not because of physics, it's because of psychology. Placebo effect PwNs all!

 

Depends on your car I would have to say.

Only one that made an actualy day and night difference on my 93 civic was installing the lower front bar. I wouldn't even notice if the others were removed.

On VWs and newer hondas I would assume upper bars would help alot. Again I said assume.

 

[silly mode on]

Yeah, I forgot to include at the bottom of my setup specs that I just bolt on a bunch of **** from my list and then go get hammered... it's amazing how fast a car can be when you are half ****-faced the next day.

[silly mode off]

Exact setup is much less important than knowing what makes a car fast. It's not so much about what parts you bolt on, it's about what they do that matters. Preparedness and understanding the dynamics of the vehicle are more important than running a specific spring rate. And forget about the tie bars.... I never said they were important. I just said I recommend them versus not.

I've never modelled them or tried to setup a test rig to do a real test, but from my experience and having seen a few torsional rigidity studies, I believe they do more good than bad on an STS car. I think they help torsionally and they do improve feedback to the driver.

I am not a ProEngineer, Mitchell, or other design program user; so is there someone that can shed light on this? And for the record, Andy is a hell of a setup guru, and I think he'd agree that it's more about understanding the dynamics of autocrossing, overall balance and transitional characteristics rather than a specific spring rate.

Chris Shenefield

 

I agree with you. those of you spending $20 or 30 bucks on strut braces is why you see no difference.

You also have to realize that they come in different sizes, and each car will respond differently depending on the size used. some times its trial and error to find the right size.

and they really do make a difference, they stiffen the chaise and eliminate body roll. If your not seeing a difference you don't have the right size.

Im running all strut braces front upper and lower and rear upper and lower, i don't have any on my sway bars on yet because they are not in yet and i see a huge difference.

this is not just a part you can just slap on, you need to look into it, some companies are better than others, as im and sure you have all learned over the years.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ashee_gt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I agree with you. those of you spending $20 or 30 bucks on strut braces is why you see no difference.

You also have to realize that they come in different sizes, and each car will respond differently depending on the size used. some times its trial and error to find the right size.

and they really do make a difference, they stiffen the chaise and eliminate body roll. If your not seeing a difference you don't have the right size.

Im running all strut braces front upper and lower and rear upper and lower, i don't have any on my sway bars on yet because they are not in yet and i see a huge difference.

this is not just a part you can just slap on, you need to look into it, some companies are better than others, as im and sure you have all learned over the years.</TD></TR></TABLE>

they eliminate body roll? or chassis flex? can we decide what it is these bars exactly do before we extol the benefits of them?

i'm sorry but if you're eliminating body roll with strut bars and no sway bars, there's something funky goin on--the moving parts of the suspension compress and decompress with an order of magnitude that's at least 100x greater than any chassis deflection, so either you're a very accurate human gyroscope, or you're confused as to what these bars are doing.

what design elements have the $$$$ STB makers utilized vs. the $20 guys? is it a material difference? a geometry difference? spoon puts a hinge on theirs, how does that impact their efficacy? and of course, once you delineate all of these different things that make a STB "worth" 200 bucks, you have to ask yourself: what is the "scope of work" so to speak, for these bars? how many newtons of force are they subjected to? how many N-m's of torque? because if a bar uses stainless steel but the forces that the bar is subjected to are well within the known tolerances of particular aluminum piece, then why pay extra for SS? furthermore, since it seems like a consensus that the rear bar is useless, i'm wondering how putting a 1 5/8" bar on top of shock towers that are no more than a couple inches removed from the firewall would improve turn in. at least frame locks are all the way on the nose of the car...