I had my car lowered 1.75"F/1.5"R and got an alignment after. I am wondering if the alignment sheet below shows my current specs as ok.

The stock specs per owners manual:
-For Toe-in are 1.0mm Front and 2.0mm Rear.
-Camber is 0 degrees front and -1 degrees rear.

(Is the toe-in values for stock the total left and right? or just left and right each? Also camber as well?)

Am I okay or should I take the car back to get re-aligned?

 

What kind of car do you have? It's possible that Camber can't even be dialed in. Depends if the car is newer or not. The alignment is near perfect so your fine. The Toe is good and your tires aren't going to wear prematurely, that's the most important part of an alignment really, toe. Camber isn't a big deal unless you want to dial it in for specific track reasons so if you've got negavite camber and your toe is straight, your okay. Your drop is quite conservative so it isn't a big deal but if your going to lose sleep over it and camber is adjustable on your vehicle, I'd set it as close to OEM spec as possible just to stay OEM because it looks off on the left front, and rears. If it doesn't have adjustability, I wouldn't worry about it.




Modified by theBRIANjonestownMASSACRE at 11:35 PM 9/5/2007

 

Looks fine, except I don't understand why the rear has SO much more camber than the front. When I was lowered about 3" I don't think I ever had more than -2 camber in back. The front was like -2.7, though.

I would think with your drop the front camber should be at least -1.5 or so. My drop is probably more conservative than yours and my camber is right around -1.5 all around.

 

I have an Acura EL, based on the chassis of a Honda Civic. I don't believe camber can be adjusted on my car, just the toe.

Is there anyway to tell from these values if the front and rear swings were put in incorrectly?

Also, should I have the alignment shop re-do the toe to have the exact same specs as stock? I've read that you should alilgn toe to zero after lowering, but the stock is 1.0mm F/ 2.0mm Rear. I don't get why they didn't do it exact the first time.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SportEL &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Is there anyway to tell from these values if the front and rear swings were put in incorrectly?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Swings? Not sure I understand.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SportEL &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also, should I have the alignment shop re-do the toe to have the exact same specs as stock? I've read that you should alilgn toe to zero after lowering, but the stock is 1.0mm F/ 2.0mm Rear. I don't get why they didn't do it exact the first time.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The toe is fine. You have to specify exactly what you want with things like this because you have to remember, especially if the person doing the alignment has a lot of years of experience, that they stick to a certain routine method of doing their alignments so if you want something specific, let it be known because they'll just do it their way.

But again, toe is good all around. If you want camber dialed in, you'd have to get a full camber kit front and back.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by theBRIANjonestownMASSACRE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Swings? Not sure I understand.

Sorry, I meant springs. If the fronts were actually put on the backs when they are meant to be for the front and vice versa.</TD></TR></TABLE>


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by theBRIANjonestownMASSACRE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The toe is fine. You have to specify exactly what you want with things like this because you have to remember, especially if the person doing the alignment has a lot of years of experience, that they stick to a certain routine method of doing their alignments so if you want something specific, let it be known because they'll just do it their way.

But again, toe is good all around. If you want camber dialed in, you'd have to get a full camber kit front and back.</TD></TR></TABLE>

How do you say if the toe is fine or not? What are you looking at? I just thought that the alignment tech would have a computer that has the values for factory all set-in and they adjust off that. Also would some toe mean that the tires are a little like this '/ \'? My car is just a daily drive, so I'm not too concerned with adjustments and everything with different setups. I just want it to be done once and over with .

 

Yes the factory values are in the computer. It has the model of your car there at the top of the image, and the fact that the toe values are in the green, center part of the range means they are within the factory specs.

But I still don't understand the camber readings. Does your car look right from the outside? The back end's not sagging or anything? In my experience, the front of a Honda almost always gains more negative camber in front than in back when you lower it. The fact that you have more than a full degree more negative camber in the back just isn't making sense. I know it's not damaged suspension parts, though, because the values are very close to each other side-to-side.

 

What kind of springs are you lowered on?

 

I personally would have tried to get the toe values closer to 0.0mm if I had done your alignment. As it stands, you have almost 1/16" of toe-in at both ends. The rear is supposed to be in that range IIRC, but I would want the front just a hair closer to straight.

You should be okay though - just keep a close eye on your tires over the next year. Some uneven wear is normal, but it shouldn't vary more than 2-3/32" across the tread width of the tire.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PatrickGSR94 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But I still don't understand the camber readings. Does your car look right from the outside? The back end's not sagging or anything? In my experience, the front of a Honda almost always gains more negative camber in front than in back when you lower it. The fact that you have more than a full degree more negative camber in the back just isn't making sense. I know it's not damaged suspension parts, though, because the values are very close to each other side-to-side.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Not for an Acura 1.6EL, which is essentially a '96-00 Civic sedan.

The camber curve is much more aggressive on '96-00 Civics than earlier models. Honda changed the geometry by lengthening the rear lower control arm.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PatrickGSR94 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes the factory values are in the computer. It has the model of your car there at the top of the image, and the fact that the toe values are in the green, center part of the range means they are within the factory specs.

But I still don't understand the camber readings. Does your car look right from the outside? The back end's not sagging or anything? In my experience, the front of a Honda almost always gains more negative camber in front than in back when you lower it. The fact that you have more than a full degree more negative camber in the back just isn't making sense. I know it's not damaged suspension parts, though, because the values are very close to each other side-to-side.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The rear does sit a little lower than the front. It is lowered on H&R Sports. However I used the Acura Integra application instead of Honda Civic which I read would be better than the Honda Civic because the ELs are a bit heavier than the Civic. By doing this, I should be avoiding any sag issues.

 

Sag is usually associated with not resetting the bushings on the lower control arms, and thus when you lower the car, the rubber bushings will tear over time. This is sometimes mistakenly thought to be the springs "settling" or sagging.

 

How do you reset the bushings?

 

With the car on jack stands, loosen all the LCA bolts on the chassis. Use a jack to lift up the suspension and load it, to where it just barely starts to lift off the jack stand, and then tighten up the bolts to spec. That way there won't be any twisting pressure on the bushings since you tightened them about where they will be when the car is on the ground.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PatrickGSR94 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">With the car on jack stands, loosen all the LCA bolts on the chassis. Use a jack to lift up the suspension and load it, to where it just barely starts to lift off the jack stand, and then tighten up the bolts to spec. That way there won't be any twisting pressure on the bushings since you tightened them about where they will be when the car is on the ground.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The shop I took it to to get the springs and shocks installed probably tightened the bolts when the car was on the lift. Is that the wrong way to do it?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SportEL &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The shop I took it to to get the springs and shocks installed probably tightened the bolts when the car was on the lift. Is that the wrong way to do it?</TD></TR></TABLE>

not a lot of ppl put any thought into this step. before i started posting about it here on honda tech, i never heard anyone ever mention this very critical step in any write up or discussion.

its very common to omit this. even tho its specifically in the helms manual.

and if they just tightened the bolts with the wheels flopping down, well, your bushings are stressed. they would have needed a tranny jack in order to have loaded the suspension while on a lift. if you didnt see that, then no, they probably didnt.

 

Okay, now that I think of it. It wouldn't have made sense to have tightened the bolts on the lift if the install has to be done on the ground.

I know the bushings and bolts on the lower control arm were replaced on both sides because the bolts were seized and bushings were cracked.

Now if I read correctly, if the bushings were not reset, then that would contribute to an immediate issue of 'sag'? Or would this be over time? And how dramatic would that be? Because I noticed that the rear is a little lower than the front right away and it seems that there would be sag over time because of the bushings tearing.

 

I got the Omni Power Rear Shim Kit, so I can adjust the camber in the back. Hopefully, that will correct the camber back to specs and increase the oversteer/reduce understeer.

Do I have to get an alignment after I put it in? I thought you only had to get an alignment when lowering/raising the car, but maybe I think because the suspension geometry is changed, I still have to get an alignment??

 

when you change camber, toe changes as well.

therefore, you need an alignment. how else are you going to know what camber you set it at anyway?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1200 Hobos &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What kind of car do you have? It's possible that Camber can't even be dialed in. Depends if the car is newer or not. The alignment is near perfect so your fine. The Toe is good and your tires aren't going to wear prematurely, that's the most important part of an alignment really, toe. Camber isn't a big deal unless you want to dial it in for specific track reasons so if you've got negavite camber and your toe is straight, your okay. Your drop is quite conservative so it isn't a big deal but if your going to lose sleep over it and camber is adjustable on your vehicle, I'd set it as close to OEM spec as possible just to stay OEM because it looks off on the left front, and rears. If it doesn't have adjustability, I wouldn't worry about it.


Modified by theBRIANjonestownMASSACRE at 11:35 PM 9/5/2007</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

^^^ and what was the point of that post with only a quote?

 

Do camber kits only provide +/- 1 full degree changes? It doesn't do anything like 0.5, 0.4,0.2 etc degrees, does it?

My car is daily driven, but I also like to do a bit of spirited aggressive cornering and speed through on ramps/off ramps. Are my current camber settings ideal for that. They are currently ~-1.0 front/-2.0 rear. If I change the camber settings back to stock at 0 front/-1.0 rear, will I lose the cornering ability?


Modified by SportEL at 7:01 PM 12/16/2007

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SportEL &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do camber kits only provide +/- 1 full degree changes? It doesn't do anything like 0.5, 0.4,0.2 etc degrees, does it?

My car is daily driven, but I also like to do a bit of spirited aggressive cornering and speed through on ramps/off ramps. Are my current camber settings ideal for that. They are currently ~-1.0 front/-2.0 rear. If I change the camber settings back to stock at 0 front/-1.0 rear, will I lose the cornering ability?

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, the car will understeer more if you reduce negative camber in front.

But a camber kit can be set anywhere you want within the range of adjustment. But for your settings, you should not waste money on a camber kit because it is totally not needed.

 

Isn't my camber settings set up for understeer now though with more negative camber in the back than front?

Should I just get a rear camber kit to reduce the negative camber in the back to -0.5 or something to get less negative camber in the rear than front to get more oversteer?

 

your toe are within specs. those are good to go.

but damn, why is youre rear hella cambered?

you have a dead body back there or something?

 

the extra rear camber is very typical of EK's. its because the rear control arms are so long and mount far inboard. i wouldnt worry about it.