I'm building a turbo B18a and I have all of my needed parts with the exception of the head. In either case, the combination is going into a 2000lb civic with 22psi so I really can't rationalize a need for Vtec for anything more than wheelspin and sound effects and I certainly don't need the valvetrain mass. Either combination will rev to 8500rpm.

The combination of parts on the bottom end are:

JE B18a/b pistons. 8.8:1 w/LS head or 8.6:1 on an ITR head.

Eagle H Beam rods

Ball bearing T3/T04 hybrid. 57 trim compressor with .50 A/R with .63 turbine. 3" inlet and 2" outlet.

Intercooled (of course) with an ~87% efficiency and 1.6psi pressure drop at 20psi.

660cc injectors

255lph fuel pump

Fidanza 7lb flywheel.

These are just the relevant parts. I've left the suspension etc out of the picture. So the big question is: For a non-tec application, what's best:

A: Integra LS B18a Head ported&polished to Type-R specs with 1mm oversized valves and ~.450 lift cams on the intake side with ~.320 duration and similar #'s on the exhaust half 3 angle valve job and uprated springs. Or....

B: Integra Type R head from a USDM ITR (or B16a) with nothing other than a polishing and knife edging the ports and 'vtec killer' cams at stock ITR specs.

What's your opinion and why?


Modified by 1316130057 at 5:54 AM 5/7/2004

 

vtec y0 cuz it 0wnz

 

Unless you want to be able to say you don't need vtec, just go with the b18c5 head. rocker arm design, valve stem diameter, 31mm valves. These are all things that help make the stock LS head the pile of crap that it is. Put in some 33mm intake valves and some good headwork, and there is no reason why a b18b head won't outflow a b18c5

 

hey who says you need VTEC to go fast?....i would go wif the built LS head....come on, be honest how many LS/VTEC cars out there that will last longer than a year...thought so...(just my opinion )

 

joseph, i have failed you.

 

About the best you'll get out of a fully ported and worked LS head is 210 cfm, I don't call that ITR spec flow.

Since this is a forced induction application, I really wouldn't care about flow, or junk boost figures. In a big power situation, as long as I was absolutely sure that my intake and exhaust tracts gave balanced flow to and evacuation from my cylinders under boost, and I was certain that my head wasn't acting as a restriction for my desired power level thus shoving pressures above my compressor's efficiency island, I really wouldn't give a **** about what head I ran.

Since you mention wheelspin and too much power as being worthless, I think you'll find 300-350 whp all you can lay to the street in a Honda chassis unless you like to do 100+ mph racing. Stock LS heads aren't anything approaching a restriction at this power level.

22 psi as a limiting factor... uhm... stock VTEC engines with a properly designed intake/exhaust and turbo selection make 300 whp before 10 psi. Speed Phreak had his LS powered HF putting out ~375 whp at 19 psi off a stock LS head with a set of web regrinds and springs (revs to 8K). Although psi is a sign of restriction and not power, I'd say at 22 psi if you had traction at 100 mph on the street there is something wrong with your setup.

Dunno how you'll take my $0.02 given our history, but it was honest and well intentioned input on my part.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NVturbo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hey who says you need VTEC to go fast?....i would go wif the built LS head....come on, be honest how many LS/VTEC cars out there that will last longer than a year...thought so...(just my opinion )</TD></TR></TABLE>

are you sure about that ...

 

go with da type-WAH head, cause its not a tight cah unless its a type-WAH

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Harry Doyle &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">go with da type-WAH head, cause its not a tight cah unless its a type-WAH </TD></TR></TABLE>

&lt;scratches head&gt;

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Harry Doyle &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">go with da type-WAH head, cause its not a tight cah unless its a type-WAH </TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NVturbo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hey who says you need VTEC to go fast?....i would go wif the built LS head....come on, be honest how many LS/VTEC cars out there that will last longer than a year...thought so...(just my opinion )</TD></TR></TABLE>

At least 99% of the ones built right last much longer than a year.........Just as reliable as a stock Honda motor. It's the *** clowns who don't know what they are doing that destroy their motors.

Definately go vtec


Modified by tthame1 at 1:18 PM 5/7/2004

 

vtec

 

Go with a VTEC head. The valvetrain on the LS heads suck (specifically the locknuts on them)

 

LOL, no bro, the locknuts are fine. Compare the valvesprings to, well, anything else you can lay hands on - you can squish them in half one handed, where SOHC springs for smaller valves revving 300 rpms more are fourteen times stiffer. I have a theory that the LS power plateau from 6-7K is due to valve float more than anything else. Even if it's not true, it might as well be.

 

I dunno about this one. I've seen quite a few LS/Vtec's that have been on the road for a few years now and I can think ofone in particular that's been running for 3 years with 5kmi oil changes. even still, this car is just a weekend warrior and likely won't see more than 6k miles a year, so even a year's run would be good enough. if the head were worth it that is...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">About the best you'll get out of a fully ported and worked LS head is 210 cfm, I don't call that ITR spec flow.
Since this is a forced induction application, I really wouldn't care about flow, or junk boost figures. In a big power situation, as long as I was absolutely sure that my intake and exhaust tracts gave balanced flow to and evacuation from my cylinders under boost, and I was certain that my head wasn't acting as a restriction for my desired power level thus shoving pressures above my compressor's efficiency island, I really wouldn't give a **** about what head I ran.</TD></TR></TABLE>

210cfm is a joke. At 22psi my compressor will be putting out ~522 psi, so I need a head that would accept similar numbers. Balancing flow in and out isn't that difficult. It's just making sure that I can get the air in that I need to then , of course, get it back out. It's going to take about 500cfm to put me in the low 400's with 94oct. About what lift do you estimate about 210 cfm at?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Since you mention wheelspin and too much power as being worthless, I think you'll find 300-350 whp all you can lay to the street in a Honda chassis unless you like to do 100+ mph racing. Stock LS heads aren't anything approaching a restriction at this power level. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, it's not that too much power would be worthless, but too much torque at low RPM would definitly be counteractive in a FWD car on drag radials. Vtec is a definite contributor to this and the transition into vtec is synonimous with wheelspin in +15psi T4 compressored b18 hatches.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">22 psi as a limiting factor... uhm... stock VTEC engines with a properly designed intake/exhaust and turbo selection make 300 whp before 10 psi. Speed Phreak had his LS powered HF putting out ~375 whp at 19 psi off a stock LS head with a set of web regrinds and springs (revs to 8K).</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'd better look into "Speed Phreak" a little, but those are some pretty good numbers from an otherwise stock head and a damn near stock cam. I can imagine the numbers with some port work and a 3-angle.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Although psi is a sign of restriction and not power, I'd say at 22 psi if you had traction at 100 mph on the street there is something wrong with your setup.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Agreed.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Dunno how you'll take my $0.02 given our history, but it was honest and well intentioned input on my part.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I take it all as a per case basis. There is no outstanding grudge. Info is info despite the source, and history is just that. History.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">vtec</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks for the opinion, but remember that vtec isn't an option here. The head is one thing, but Vtec is a no-no.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Go with a VTEC head. The valvetrain on the LS heads suck (specifically the locknuts on them) </TD></TR></TABLE>

lol, that might be a problem. I dunno, my thinking is that even if the hardware were the roadblock in the LS head, it would still cost substantially less to rectify with an uprated aftermarket replacement, than it would cost me for any of the stock tec heads. I could be wrong, but that's the way I'm looking at it.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I have a theory that the LS power plateau from 6-7K is due to valve float more than anything else. Even if it's not true, it might as well be.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

If the springs are as soft to actuate as you say they are, then I'm shocked they even rev THAT high.


Anyone else with any other P.O.V.'s?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1316130057 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

210cfm is a joke. At 22psi my compressor will be putting out ~522 psi, so I need a head that would accept similar numbers. Balancing flow in and out isn't that difficult. It's just making sure that I can get the air in that I need to then , of course, get it back out. It's going to take about 500cfm to put me in the low 400's with 94oct. About what lift do you estimate about 210 cfm at?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I forget the lift, it was something Brad mentioned, but it was the usual garbage flowbench numbers the NA guys use that are meaningless unless you take a lot of other factors into account. It's about as accurate for measuring power as boost figures are - just a yardstick, nothing precision. Having boost means you flow a lot more than the 210 rating, which is a lot more than a stock head.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1316130057 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I take it all as a per case basis. There is no outstanding grudge. Info is info despite the source, and history is just that. History.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Having boost means you flow a lot more than the 210 rating, which is a lot more than a stock head. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, that's the big part of my dillema. I can get flow numbers for any of the vtec heads with just about any degree of work I could imagine, but the LS/RS/B20 heads...negative. What would really answer my question is if the basic design of the head (the valve angle and spacing, combustion chamber angle and diamater, and basic port angles, spring seats, etc) are the same or similar. If so, then there's no reason an LS head won't make ITR+ numbers.

I'm hoping that an LS head is really just a GSR head with puny ports, shitty springs, and Shitaki Mushrooms for valves. Man, what I wouldn't give to have this LS head side-by-side with an ITR/Si head...

 

The LS ports are smaller, and you can't port them quite to VTEC specs before you hit a coolant or oil passage. There just isn't enough material.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BoostedsiR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

are you sure about that ...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why are you implyin on a race then...I hate for you to get embarrased...by a "LS turbo'd hatch"?!!!.....

 

bump it up your post dog

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The LS ports are smaller, and you can't port them quite to VTEC specs before you hit a coolant or oil passage. There just isn't enough material.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If this is true then it's a waste to mess with the LS head for the kind of CFM that I'm looking for. I feel somewhat guilty for giving in to vtec, but I decided to pick up a JDM ITR head. Just for ***** and giggles I'll run some dynos with the LS head vs the ITR head so everyone can see the measured differences. I'll likely set-up the vtec activation a few RPM above spool in order to avoid wheel spin.

Thanks again everyone for the advice.