it's b/c of the torque curve right...i know there's a lot of variables here such as drivetrain and such, and it also has a lot to do with basic traction....but yeah why?

also,
get this example for say 2 honda civics
200whp NA vs. 200whp SC
both have instantaneous power
same car, jus different engine....

which would win?

 

Well, 200 whp sc car i bet would be faster than all motor, simply beacuse of the torque at lower RPMs. Also, all motor doesnt have instantaneous power, you gotta rev the **** out of it to get 200 whp, unless you go with 2.0l or something like that.

 

If you are talking faster as in the 1/8th or 1/4 mile, then it is probably traction related.
The driver's skill has a big part in this too.
One thing I have noticed is that with some of the Vortech Sis, they make more peak power than I do, but I make more power down low than they do...


Jason

 

Yeah, whats with those Vortech Sis? I saw a dyno chart with 277@wheels, but it was all at peak and only ran a 14.1. Kinda weak for 277 whp id say, since my friends JRSC GSR had 244 WHP and ran 13.2, but it had a MUCH fatter torque curve.

 

The Vortech Si I was thinking of makes 250 and 177 and runs 13.47 at 106. I run 13.47 at 105.33. My torque is way fatter down low, before boost comes on for the Si. I think in this case, the majority of it is the driver...


Jason

 

It would boil down to what the torque curve looked like.

So that would depend on what kind of cams the NA car was running. And what size turbo and how much boost the turbo car was running.

Although, I would guess that the turbo car would be faster if both had the same peak HP. Given that the turbo isn't ridiculously large, it'll usually start making power earlier in the rev band.

edit: I thought about it a little more. Depending on how the race was setup, but usually the Turbo car would have an advantage with the Turbo car pulling away sooner, but with both cars at their power peak, both cars would have the same pull.

Now let's say the race was started from a 50mph punch in 2nd gear...it would be pretty even then...perhaps a sliiight advantage to the NA car since it's got throttle response while the turbo car has to take moments to build boost.


[Modified by Jesse H, 7:12 AM 11/2/2001]

 

yeah allmotor hp is stronger than turbo hp
but sc hp is stronger than allmotor hp to a certain extent
if the engines really hot the blowers not gonna be effective

why do u think domestics like big engines
big engines big power, ALLmotor

200hp almotor can sometimes beat 250 turbo hp

 

everything else being exactly the same it depends on the torque curve as to which will edge out.

but you have to consider everything in addition to the hp and torque, because it is highly doubtful that any two cars are going to be exactly the same in that regard.

 

Ok, here's my take on it. It depends. Here's why:

First of all, what makes you think an all-motor 200hp engine will make more power in the lower rpm's (say 2k-4k) than the 200hp turbo? Remember that when a honda engine goes from say 150whp (stock GS-R) --> 200whp, nearly all the power is coming up top. I doubt there would be much of a difference from 2k-5k rpms. So, if you took that 200whp gsr and raced a stock gsr, and set an rpm limit of 5k, it would be relatively close. So, we know that an all-motor 200whp engine doesn't make much more torque in the low/midrange than a stock engine.

Next, what makes you think a turbo is so weak in the lower/midrange rpms? Unless you've lowered the CR, a turbo on a gs-r still has stock static compression. The only reason a turbo-gsr would make less power in the lower/midrange rpms is due to the fact that you often need to retard ignition timing to prevent detonation. So, yes, a turbo-gsr will make a little-less hp in the lower rpm's. I say lower rpm's and not midrange, because in the midrange, starting probably a little before 3000 rpms, the turbo will be producing usable power and around 3500 rpms, you'll be at nearly full boost (depending on the size of the turbo). That'll begin to make up for power lost due to the ignition retard.

The main problem with the turbo is that during launch, you won't be spooling. The turbo needs a load on the engine to spool, and you're not going to get that with revving your engine with your clutch in, waiting for the green light... unless you have an auto. So, at launch, it'll almost be like driving a NA car... until the turbo kicks in. But, like I covered earlier, a turbo'd engine is not making that much less power in the lower rpm's than a NA car, so moot point.

Anyway, when you're racing, how often does your rpm's drop below 3k? Probably never, except maybe for initial launch. As long as you don't bog the launch with the turbo'd car, it'll be a close race with the 200hp NA car.

 

All motor cars have advantages that the turbo cars do not. They have the ability to come off at high rpm and stick all their power to the ground right out of the hole. That is why these Civics granted they weigh next to nothing run such amazing et's. 11.3's in a CRX with only 250hp whoever thought that was possible.

If you ever notice the turbo cars550hp+ have so much trouble hooking up. They spin those giants slicks for a 1.8 mile then they settle down and make it up for it on the last 1/8. Just imagine if those fwd monsters could put they're power down to the ground, everyone one of them would run deep into the 8's. That would be amazing. Spinning slicks to a 9 isn't something to snuff about, but what's the use of having 650 hp if you can't put it down to the ground.

I dunno I rambling on and on , just my two cents.

 

Because there are other forms of racing where the launch isn't so important.

But yeah, FWD hi-power draggers are...funny.


[Modified by Jesse H, 8:33 AM 11/2/2001]

 

also most all motor cars making 200hp are revving to 9500 rpms, which allows them to take advantage of gearing better than most turbo or SC cars.

 

if your running an turbo'd integra and only getting 200hp there is something wrong with your car!

 

damnit...i was just about to say that.

 

Mostly, it has to do with the redline on NA motors. There are also reasons why the newer line-up of turbo cars are having high redlines.

A higher redline makes the power a lot more useable. Just asking which car will be faster with 250WHP turbo and NA is a vague question. If we were to say a turbo 250 WHP with 8000RPM, and a NA 250 WHP with 8000RPM and the same gearing and traction taken care of, then turbo would win definitely.

Just imagine why a motorcyle can accelerate that fast. It revs, and revs and revs! A high redline allows the car to pull nice and long in the beef of the powerband, and there is lesser momentm lost during shifts, or sudden engine deceleration, ie: falling off boost/lag and RPM drop. That is why turbo cars get crazy long *** gearing, but you can only get so much longer gearing to the extent that you fall off boost after every shift and stay too much below the peak.

How about a supercharger? Anyone thought of heatsoaking and the increase of intake air temperature in a non-intercooled supercharger? Most JRSC setups look good on dyno because there is no consecutive 1st-4th gear pulls, but rather just a 4th gear pull. Think of why there people with JRSC "deboosting" rather than getting a pulley upgrade. Alsom I have seen many cases that supercharged motors don't do so well at long highway pulls. This sometimes applies to 1/4mile as well, where the end of 3rd and beginning of 4th gear gets sluggish, which results in slightly lower traps.

Just in case I flame the JRSC owners, there are many powerful JRSC setups out there (ie: Rboosted717!). But that's what I have discovered about JRSC setups before I decide to go all0out NA. Well, if we get into daily driving and low-end torque, that's a different story.




[Modified by Tony the Tiger, 6:00 PM 11/2/2001]

 

all motor is more reliable.turbo cars don't always run right.
turbos take time to spool up.

 

oh yea i have hung with a ls-vtec turbo civic si pushing 15psi
it was a talon turbine but, a turbo is a turbo and also ls-vtec at that.
i think i could have beat it if it weren't for my alternator that came loose and
my launch was very crappy too

 

so Tony, what do you suggest ppl to do with a daily driving car? NA/TURBO/SC?

 

I myself would go NA, but the money it takes to run with the boosted guys isn't little. I know I am abusive and redline my car a lot (addicted to revving), and turbo motors wouldn't fullfill my needs. I wanted to go supercharged at one time, but the amount of cash I needed at once just isn't there.

I'd say go supercharged if you like torque and seldomly see the redline. If you race a lot and like building up the car bit by bit, NA would be a choice for you.

 

I am not trying to post a kills story but I hope this explains something.
There is a certain local here who has a gsr with a Greddy kit(not a very good one IMO)He makes 199-202whp.I watched the car dyno.I am not so sure what I make. I can consistantly run 14.0-14.1's with just header,test-pipe and a CAI.
I ran into him about 3 weeks ago and we raced from a few different situations and her is what happened.
1.)The first scenario was from a dead stop.I got a perfect launch and he still pulled up a half a car through mid first.By my redline in first I caught him.We were dead even until 105mph.
2.)This time was from a roll in first(30mph)I was in vtec so I just had to hit the gas.He signaled me we went at the exact same time.I pulled hard in first putting his front bumper on my rear tire.At 130 mph he never caught me.We were pretty much even from first up.
Baically what this shows me is that he is making power throught the mid range were I am not ,but for some reason it is not making good ?power/torque up high.
He was shocked because while we were racing my mountain bike was in the back of the car,however,it was stripped other than that.I guess an all motor car more efficiently takes advantage of the gearing and makes a better power curve Vs. a lower power turbo application.If I had 200whp I would have beaten the **** out of him.

 

200 with the Greddy kit sounds like he was running real rich up top. I have a freind with a GReddy kit and his AF goes off the chart rich above 6000. He is still making 195 to the wheels, but if he was able to do some real tuning he would be easily at 220-230. Good win though

ps in your post you said that you consistently run 14.0-14.1 with header testpipe and CAI. did you accidentally get a b18c5 in your teg?


[Modified by Chris_Turbo, 9:28 AM 11/3/2001]

 

Not accidentally - look at his sn - he has an ITR

 

mouth.

 

ITR

 

Just to point out, not having the turbo fully spooled is good for launching. If you were putting down tons of power at a dead stop, spinning the tires and losing a great amount of traction would nearly be unavoidable.
In my car, I'm glad that it's not making tons of power until 3-4k rpms...traction would simply suck.
The time it takes to reach boost from a dead stop is probably about 1-1.5 seconds, so no big deal there...power is right around the corner.