Following up on the excellent advice I got on the final drive from all the experienced folks on this forum I want to know your thoughts on a Hondata for an LS engine.

Other than an AEM V2 intake and ceramic DC Sports race headers the engine is pretty much stock. It was rebuilt by Kingmotorsports to closer production tolerances but it's still a stock LS engine.

Since this is a non-VTEC engine am I wasting money installing a Hondata system?

Some tuners I have talked with say 10-15 hp can be had others say it's a waste of money on a non-VTEC and that at most I will get 5 hp.

Just wondering if anyone here has done this to a LS engine or if you have a well researched opinion on the matter.

I know the gains on VTEC engines are well documented but other than some LS turbo engines I haven't seen much in the archives about adding a Hondata to a stock LS engine.

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod
#40 Guident Technologies/HRPWorld.com Integra LS (H4)

 

Be very careful with certain parts. You can easily put yourself in a different class. Does the Hondata fit inside the stock ECU case-if not it is not legal in Improved Touring for example. If legal in HC would it bump you up to a different class-maybe/maybe not. Does it get you more performance for the dollars spent on it? Only a dyno will tell you that. If your engine has been redone so that it revs freely and has the necessary headwork-then you may well have gotten as much as you need out of the setup to be competitive. Just my opinion-leave alone what already works.

 

The NASA rules for Honda Challenge cite Hondata (rule 9.1j) by name as an example of a legally modified ECU. That's in the section for "Allowed Modifications" which applies to H1-H5.

ITA is a different story.

Thawley

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jc836 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If your engine has been redone so that it revs freely and has the necessary headwork-then you may well have gotten as much as you need out of the setup to be competitive. Just my opinion-leave alone what already works.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm sorry but that's horrible advice.

Hondata on any stock engine with bolt ons will give great gains. Sometimes we can pick up 10 ft lbs in the mid range, etc. Now, with someone like me, who runs a D16Z6, that's 10% of my peak torque PICKED up in the mid range.

Get that sucker tuned

an engine will never tune itself

 

I'm curious about this, too, as I'm working up a D16Z6 myself. Obviously, it works for HC, but Emerika, does yours fit into the stock ecu case? I can't remember, but is Hondata a piggyback, or a standalone ECU? This, and whether it fits in the stock case, I believe, are the only issues with it being legal for ITA.

I'll take 10% more ANYWHERE I can get it (except weight, of course).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FormulaIntegra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm curious about this, too, as I'm working up a D16Z6 myself. Obviously, it works for HC, but Emerika, does yours fit into the stock ecu case? I can't remember, but is Hondata a piggyback, or a standalone ECU? This, and whether it fits in the stock case, I believe, are the only issues with it being legal for ITA.

I'll take 10% more ANYWHERE I can get it (except weight, of course).</TD></TR></TABLE>

It depends on which unit you go with. The S100 programs are just a chip that is reprogrammable.

The S200, which has datalogging is also a chip inside the ecu, but has an external blue box for data logging...which really isn't needed for a slightly modded stock engine.

Another great option though is UBERDATA. I actually made the change from Hondata to Uberdata. Uberdata is CHEAP...you just need someone with a pocket programmer and it all works the same way. You can actually ake Hondata maps and tweak them and burn them on the Uberdata chip. I got my whole Uberdata setup for 20 bucks....cost of the chip and some lunch for a friend with the pocket programmer and laptop.

I remember Tom, B18C5-EH2 showing his dyno plots awhile ago....bolt ons on his ITR engine and gained about 20 mid rang hp with VAFC tuning...and Hondata is much better

 

Sorry, but I feel the need to insert a rant here...

It seems that to many people on this board purchasing something from Hondata is the only way to have your stock ECU tuned. This could not be further from the truth.

As Emerika eludes to... hondata does nothing for ODBI cars that cannot be done with a socketed ECU. Their business plan is to get a tuner to buy their high-end package so they can tune cars. In return, the tuner/dealer will make every customer buy a low-end hondata product before he will tune their car. A perfect example of this is a well-known Hondata tuner in the NoVa area. He was more than happy to sell me a chip with a map he had tuned for another car, but only if I bought a hondata product - which would have provided me no additional features.

A tuner down the street, however, could accomplish the same thing without adding a $2-500 hondata line-item to your bill.

I'm not necessarily anti-hondata... I just think many people are misunderstanding what features their product does, or does not, have.

 

that's why Uberdata is so cheap and good. Same gains as anything else and very tuner friendly.

 

Well I can only comment on this from limited experience but of the 5 options I've personally used

1. Akimoto Racing - went there felt no difference in power or tractability

2. G Force / Techtom - went there car hauled *** but with no limiter


3. APEX VAFC - decent gains all over the place smoother than I'd hoped

4. TEC 2 - spent considerable time on the dyno - 900 bux later an impossible motor drove very well -

5. Hondata - rather inexpensive, drove very well almost stock

We have some excellent tuners in so Cal Hondata wise and that might be the difference but I felt it worth the time and money and will be going that route again

Kiwi and SBE race on theres and seem to love it so I would spend the money.

 

Given that I am installing some type of new Final Drive (4.7 or 4.9) wouldn't the Hondata benefit me in being able to tune the cars shift points and maximum rpm's?

So even if the gains in terms of hp are negligible would you all recommend it in view of the new final drive?

It also sounds as if I need the S100 only if I don't want data logging and don't plan to tune the car myself. Is this correct?

HC rules do allow the Hondata.

As always thanks for the great advice on this board.

Regards,

Jon

 

Trying to step off my soapbox for a second...

My advice is that you should definitely have the car tuned. Find the most reputable tuner in your area, and use the software/hardware that they suggest.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spirit R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We have some excellent tuners in so Cal Hondata wise and that might be the difference but I felt it worth the time and money and will be going that route again</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is a good point. Hondata does have local distributors all over the US. Some are likely more experienced tuners than others. Any of the guys at Hondata can probably steer you toward the best guy in your area. Definitely worth a call.

Thawley

 

You mention that the engine was rebuilt to stock specs- I thought that H4 allowed basically IT prep for the engine build. It this is the case, there should be a decent amount of power to be had by rebuilding the engine to IT specs. I would persue this route before ECU modifications.

 

I will be upgrading to a hondata. If my cars MIN weight gets raised in H4. When i built my engine i built to to the Maximum of the rules to get every ounce of HP out of out of it by IT specs. Every 2-3 HP and tourge can help in winning your class. So i suggest upgaring to hondata and tune it if you have the money to spend for one. 5-7+ HP will be realized over a stock ECU.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FormulaIntegra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm curious about this, too, as I'm working up a D16Z6 myself. Obviously, it works for HC, but Emerika, does yours fit into the stock ecu case? I can't remember, but is Hondata a piggyback, or a standalone ECU? This, and whether it fits in the stock case, I believe, are the only issues with it being legal for ITA.

I'll take 10% more ANYWHERE I can get it (except weight, of course).</TD></TR></TABLE>

as mentioned the S100 is what you want. It will fit inside the stock case.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sorry, but I feel the need to insert a rant here...

It seems that to many people on this board purchasing something from Hondata is the only way to have your stock ECU tuned. This could not be further from the truth.

As Emerika eludes to... hondata does nothing for ODBI cars that cannot be done with a socketed ECU. Their business plan is to get a tuner to buy their high-end package so they can tune cars. In return, the tuner/dealer will make every customer buy a low-end hondata product before he will tune their car. A perfect example of this is a well-known Hondata tuner in the NoVa area. He was more than happy to sell me a chip with a map he had tuned for another car, but only if I bought a hondata product - which would have provided me no additional features.

A tuner down the street, however, could accomplish the same thing without adding a $2-500 hondata line-item to your bill.

I'm not necessarily anti-hondata... I just think many people are misunderstanding what features their product does, or does not, have.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I do think Hondata is a lot of money but it is a nicely integrated product. I haven't used Uberdata but the biggest advantage I love of the S200 hondata product is the ability to use the emulator and datalog at the same time. When I can datalog with the fuel map open and see exactly what cells the ECU is pulling data off of that is invaluable. And not to mention having Wideband support. The Uberdata might have that but I have no idea. Just letting you know what I like about Hondata. I like hondata because I tune it all myself and use a wideband and run an emulator.

And to the original question, Is it worth it? Without a doubt.

s