I know I know, turbo's arent good for autocrossing. Ive had so many people tell me this and I have actually seen the bad results myself. BUT...I am too cheap to go all motor and do all the tuning and work and blah blah blah, so i want to go turbo. Ive been doin some research and I figure that with my LSD Y1 tranny matched with the B16 in second gear I shouldnt fall below 4k rpms in ANY of the turns there gonna have at fedex field (by the way I have full suspension illumina's ALL bushings poly, neuspeed front tower bar, neuspeed race springs, rear suspension tech adjustable sway bar) and as of now i dont have too much of a problem gettin the power to the ground even in mid turn. I know that throwing a T3/t4 turbo on there isnt really gonna help cause im gonna be laggin like a school bus, BUT...I figure that If I can get a ball bearing T25 or even ball bearing T3 (not sure if they even make one) and a good intercooler I will still easily be able to carry 8PSI of boost through redline and should reach full boost VERY quickly coming out of turns at 4k rpms. I know that there is a turbo miata in SM2 with me that does VERY well and doesnt seem to have any problems with lag, if he can do it with 1.6L then i should be able to too right? Basically I need your guys opinions on this, and dont tell me not to go turbo cause Im a stuborn ******* and Im gonna do it anyway, I just want to know the best way to go to minimize turbo lag, not worried about making 20PSI at 8k rpms but making 6psi at 2k rpms (im sure that would be tough). If any of you have any insight on this It would be nice to know. By the way I will also be wanting to run the car at the tracks such as summit point and in NASA's honda challenge but im not too sure on how that works with turbo, any insight would be greatly appreciated.

thank you
Jason

PS i did try the search button but it only turned up results for drag setups...Also how much boost could i run with a small a/r 48 T3 with a good spearco intercooler and be a good 3 psi from detonation and would it carry all the way to redline?

 

I'm guessing you did a motor swap and are in SM anyways and now want a turbo.... I say skip it. Spend the money on wheels, tires, suspension and seat time. There's better performing suspension setups out there than illuminas and OE-style springs, IMO.

I'm sure it can be done, and i'm sure you could make it work - but suspension and seat time will make you faster for the same money spent.

 

RJ is right. The car will be faster if you first tune yourself, then the suspension to get the most out of the car.

Here is a good way to look at it. Look at the times from the practice event for CSP and then look at SM2. The top CSP cars have there suspensions pretty well worked out. They are putting less power down and they are killing the SM2 times.

Putting more power in your car will only make it more difficult to drive at the limit at this point. I would take some time to learn to drive. Don't be Impatient, it takes time to become a good at anything you do. Throwing money at the car does not mean you will be faster. I have worked with a BUNCH of novices and would be happy to help you if you would like. I will not be at the event on the 18th, however I will be at the event this Saturday at Ripkin Stadium outside Aberdeen running my black 91 CRX in CSP. Anytime you have a question or want to do a walkthrough with me, just ask. I am always glad to help.

Eric Carman

 

^ What they said.

Currently in SM2, you can place well with quite a bit less than 200rwhp (as evidenced by Lt Dan's RX-7). He also doesn't have a fully developed suspension (it's just a modified MARRS Spec RX-7 setup).

But, if you want to throw a snail at your car, go ahead. Even if it lags, you won't make less power at low rpms than sans-snail (unless you use low compression pistons or some whacked-out fuel system).

I looked into doing this to my old Civic a few years ago. I learned to read compressor maps so I knew which turbo would fit the application. Whatever the old Greddy kits used was a good size (get that size, but use a modern ball-bearing turbo).

An alternative that might be cheaper is a different final drive. It will keep you in your powerband a bit better. If you do it right, you probably can keep the car in 3rd gear most of the course.

 

Fooi, haha. Ya you all are probably right, damn. I'm just bein impatient, i took a driving school a few months ago and ive done two autocrosses but im still on shitty *** street tires, my suspension feels good but my brakes are crap, but overall i already consider myself a fairly good driver, although im sure there is MUCH room for improvement. Tires alone will drop me a few seconds and if I can master my driving skills i might be able to get pretty close to top 3, guess the turb is gonna have to wait, but I still want to have a FWD dominated SM2 class....and since i am the ONLY FWD out of like 15 cars, its gonna have to be me. I was worried you guys were gonna talk me out of it, i knew i shouldnt have posted....

thanks all

 

Whatever helps *you* have the most fun with your car...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Shiftkit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know I know, turbo's arent good for autocrossing. Ive had so many people tell me this and I have actually seen the bad results myself.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hmmm. People around here been getting to you eh? You'll be hard pressed to find a more "anti turbo" lot. I keep waiting for someone to explain to me why 200 whp at 5500 rpm's, or 170 ft/lbs of torque at 3500 rpm's from my boosted d16 is "bad".

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fsp31 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Hmmm. People around here been getting to you eh? You'll be hard pressed to find a more "anti turbo" lot. I keep waiting for someone to explain to me why 200 whp at 5500 rpm's, or 170 ft/lbs of torque at 3500 rpm's from my boosted d16 is "bad". </TD></TR></TABLE>

170 ft/lbs +Light FWD + Street tires = SMOKE

Nah, properly set up, it would be fun, but it would need alot of development to get it down so that you can use it though. If you can't use it, what good is it? That is pretty much the point.



Modified by Crosser at 8:03 AM 4/7/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Shiftkit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Fooi, haha. Ya you all are probably right, damn. I'm just bein impatient, i took a driving school a few months ago and ive done two autocrosses but im still on shitty *** street tires, my suspension feels good but my brakes are crap, but overall i already consider myself a fairly good driver, although im sure there is MUCH room for improvement. Tires alone will drop me a few seconds and if I can master my driving skills i might be able to get pretty close to top 3, guess the turb is gonna have to wait, but I still want to have a FWD dominated SM2 class....and since i am the ONLY FWD out of like 15 cars, its gonna have to be me. I was worried you guys were gonna talk me out of it, i knew i shouldnt have posted....

thanks all</TD></TR></TABLE>

Trust me, in autocross you will get WAY more out of a well set up suspension with 13x8 wheels and R-compounds than more horsepower on a car that won't be able to use it. The priority list of improvements usually as follows:

1. Improve Driver
2. Improve Driver more with seat time
3. Alignment
4. R compound tires and wheels (for you 13 X 8 wheels)
5. Shocks and springs, (Not lowering springs, properly set up spring rates and quality shocks that can handle the rates you are running)
6. LSD
7. Sway bars
8. Get it all sorted, then add more power.

 

I have a B16 a1 in a CRX as a auto-X car an we just took my car to the Grm 04. I have near 200 hp but most was useless with out race tires... No race slicks --15.3 with slicks we would of at least got one more second... No race tires at the auto x and we ended up 13th when we could of won the whole thing... I will not make that mistake again... do not underestimate the power of good tires....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crosser &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">170 ft/lbs +Light FWD + Street tires = SMOKE
[/i]</TD></TR></TABLE>

SM + Street Tires = back o' the pack in the tx region. A nice M3, and a couple of well driven f-bodies help keep our aspirations in check. There is one Evo that is running killer times on street tires, but he never does scca events.

My Hoosiers don't have a problem with the power. The perception is that a turbo system is going to be "laggy", and result in a difficult to control powerband. Those are both symptoms of a turbo system NOT designed for autox. The problem is, drag racers oWn the world of boosted Hondas. That leaves relatively little empirical data to work with for those of us in search of 200-250 whp max, instant throttle response, and *less weight* than a B series motor. On top of that, roadies are particularly hard on the turbo crowd, and the road race influence is definitely felt in Solo2 circles.

I guess we'll learn the truth of it when someone preps a NA, and boosted FWD SM cars to the extent of the rules... about 20 years from now.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Shiftkit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but im still on shitty *** street tires, my suspension feels good but my brakes are crap, </TD></TR></TABLE>

might wanna sort out your braking issues before boosting. as for your aspirations of running honda challenge, correct me if i'm wrong, but no forced induction allowed, right? at the same time, snails are fun...

 

Ok well for starters, my setup

JDM b16a (cai/hder/stock exhaust )
Y1 LSD tranny
Susp. tech frnt/rear sway bar (i know i should probably take the fnt one off)
Neuspeed RACE springs (pretty high spring rate, very little body roll)
Tokico Illumina's set on 5 rear/2 frnt
I now have neuspeed frnt tower bar which wasnt on there before
ALL poly bushings (what a bitch), even the big ones in the back that dont come with kit
Rota slips 15x7's
Pilot sport tires (craaaaapy) will have azenis by next autox


notice LSD....by the way I have done two autocrosses and taken a short driving school, I dont mean to brag but I consider myself a very quick learner...with this setup (setup for extreme understeer with HUGE front sway bar and rear bar set on lowest setting, i will change for next race) I ran at my second autox ever last weekend, i was late for morning and didnt get to run till last heat in afternoon (booo...7 hour wait). I had 3 crappy runs in a row (one which should have been very good but got excited in hte last turn and understeered right into the boxturn...shitty. my last run i took it somewhat easy trying not to hit anything so i could have at least one clean run (it turns out they missed a cone i hit in a previous run so i actually had one already but not technically). You can check my times under SM2 http://solo.wdcr-scca.org/results/2004/040328.html my name is Jason Shippee in the black 89 Si. I wouldnt go braggin to my friends but for my second autox on shitty *** street tires and a very shitty suspension setup for oversteer, there should be alot of room for improvement. I find myself pointing and shooting alot instead of setting up for the turn, i know what to do but it is pretty hard to train yourself to do something that doesnt seem natural (going so wide on turns and not overdriving the car). Anyway, i just wanted to note this because alot of you have made comments about how I should do certain things and I actually have already. like the last person said, I was looking for advice on a good autox turbo setup, the bad wrap that turbo's have gotten is becasue of drag racers that try to autox their honda's with a big *** t3/t4 setup that, in my opinion, is just WAY to big for your everyday 7lbs of boost. I guess this site has still not unearthed any truly autox built turbo honda's so its a failure in a sense. Maybe I will be the first and stop the bad wrap with turbos

Jesus that was long, i need to lay off the aderal, haha...

Jason

 

As I said, for preparing the car the list I gave it what I suggest to be a priority. I did not even look at your set up before I wrote it. My biggest suggestion, is what you are looking to do already...get azenis (to start with). Get LOTS more seat time. Improve your driving. When the car is holding you back, then modify it. At this point, what you need is a constant unchanging platform to improve your driving. This is the standard answer everyone will give you here. But there is a reason for it. It is the best way to track your improvements as a driver. And the driver is most important part of racing. Don't fall into the trap of, "I could win if I only had _____ on the car." Your driving skills will get you 95% of the way there, the other 5% are the car mods. If you feel you must spend money, do it on driving schools, The evolution autocross schools are the best going right now. Unfortunately, they just did one here in DC this past weekend, but there will be ones in other areas not far from here in the future I am sure. Here is the link to their site if you have not seen it already. http://www.autocross.com/evolution/ Trust me, I know and have raced against and with most of the instructors they will tell you, that even they are still learning.

As for the turbo set up. I don't think anyone is saying don't do them period. There have been a bunch of people that have done them and done well with them. The point I was making is that you have a car that has PLENTY of power right now as it sits. You have not reached the point of using all your car has to offer as it sits now. You admitted yourself that there are alot of things you need to learn, like the racing line. This is actually basic point of racing. If you go and add more power to the car, which will make it more of a handful to drive, it will make it that much harder to learn the basics you need to do well.

Hope to meet you sometime soon at an event. And as I said before, don't hesitate to introduce yourself and ask questions at an event. I am always glad to help.

Guess this post is getting kind of long as well. Hahaha

Eric



Modified by Crosser at 11:02 AM 4/8/2004

 

Looking at those times and your setup, if you add some R-compounds, you will move up quite a few spots in the local standings.

I'd definitely look into an auto-x specific wheel/tire setup and getting to a few more events (or even an Evolution school if available). Those two things will cost you less than a turbo setup and make you competitive locally.

At the next event, look for Lt Dan. He currently drives the grey 1st gen RX-7 in SM2, but is an ex-CRX guy. He can probably give you some good pointers. If your looking for people to judge yourself against, I'd suggest Lt. Dan since he's in your class, or Ian Baker in CSP (in a CRX). Obviously, Crosser and the other HT regulars are good resources as well.

 

thanks again guys, ive thought about it a little bit and i htink you guys are right, I really need to just learn how to drive with a "not so crazy" setup (even know most would consider my car pretty crazy, they say you should learn in a stock car before moving to seomthing that is race ready). I geuss my reasoning behind it was that I wanted to get the car setup as complete as I could this year so that for the next 5 years I will have the same setup and be able to really master it instead of one year adding a this and the next putting a role cage in and the enxt a turn, ect...ect...ect. you know. But now that I think about i should be ok with taking one step at a time, it will make me well rounded instead of used to only one thing.

thanks again
jason

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Shiftkit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thanks again guys, ...But now that I think about i should be ok with taking one step at a time, it will make me well rounded instead of used to only one thing.

thanks again
jason</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hey Jason,

One dude mentioned about checking out an Evo School, good suggestion, but if you can not get to one, try either riding with instructors or having them ride with you, and if you can and you don't mind, let an instructor drive your car. Most won't "beat" your car, but they will give you some times for you to try and "beat". Also this will give you a seat-of-the-pants perspective of what many people try and comunicate verbally. I think most will agree, it's easier just to "show" you.

Good luck and have fun!

 

I've got a '91 B16 turbo with a T3 and Zdyne ECM. I've got a terrible suspension set up with Bridgestone Potenza re950s.

I've been competing in some of the local SCCA events and agree with a lot of what's being said on the thread. I was worried about lag at first, but found that because I was spending so much time in the higher rpm ranges that it wasn't an issue. I did find however, that because of the extra power, bad tires, poor suspension set up, and no LSD that I'd lose traction all the time. It's extremely important to get those things worked out before adding the power, because power doesn't matter when you can't apply it. I've since been working on gathering suspension components.
Don't be disuaded from going turbo though, 'cause they kick ***!!

 

Ok I ran in SM2 for 2 years sans turbo and kept up with the Turbo/SC Miatas and MR2s. Although a Z06 would have smoke me if one showed up but that a different story.

 

Hoosier A3S04 205/50/15's...try them you'll never go back. We are doing well in SM with suspension, brakes, tires, alignment and drivers.

Kappa12 and I are having a blast in a B16A 90 civic sedan. But if you compare our times to SM2 you might need a turbo to keep up with them...good luck

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rex_boy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Although a Z06 would have smoke me if one showed up but that a different story.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not anymore it isn't.

Now even the top SM cars are beating SS. SM2 will probably beat 'em really bad... And yes, I'm worried about it too.