I recently had my car dynoed (h22 civic). I was making decent power to 8000, but on the dyno it had multiple 8400-8500 rpm dyno pulls. Do you guys think this is detrimental to the bottom end? I have heard close to stock H22's being taken higher than that. My theory is that most honda bottom ends can handle serious rpm's. What would you guys say to that? The cams I have are supposed to peak around 8k. So shifting close to 9k will probably happen a lot.

 

Would you care to explain how your theory of the H22a being a high reving motor is correct?

The prelude is not a high reving motor. The main reason is due to the low rod/stroke ratio and the weaker crank that we have. Another thing you have to realize, your stock valvetrain was not designed to rev up to 8500 all day every day. The H22a can endure a higher rev stock than the h23a can, which is why the h23vtecs fail so often. Now I have been trying to search on the way the cranks have been made and I do not have concrete proof. Some say both are forged, others say h22a is forged and the h23a is cast. I plan on going to visit honda this week to try to put an end to this debate.

So what exactly do you have done to your motor that keeps the power climbing past 8000rpms? Usually stock H22a powerband dies out around the 8k range.

 

shifting at 9k ????: HAHAHAHAHHAAHAAH

you better get a good clutch and spare cranks....

my friend thought it would be cool to shift at 9k, he had a jdm h22a, put a chip in it and shifted it at 9k, little did he try, the car went to 9k and as soon as he tried to shift it, the clutch assembly exploded. ripped all the bolts clean from the crank, detroyed the pp, disc and flywheel.

not fun....

since then he got an ACT and tougher bolts.. and shifts it before that...

that high rpm you need a good clutch, because it does rotate to fast and clutches doen't seem to engage well..

I have an ACT xtreme and clutchmasters flywheel and you can tell the differnces between 8k shifts 8.5k shifts and more.. not the same feeling..

stock motor HELL NO!

 

He posted up his dyno in the allmotor forum. He did rev it to 8400rpm, but i don't remember where it peaked at. His head is equiped with skunk2 stage 2 cams, s2 valve springs, s2 retainers, s2 valves. I would say his head is prepared for high reving but im woundering why do u say h22a have low rod/stroke ratios? Isn't the rod/stroke ratio on a h22a motor the same as a b18c and c5 motor? And they have no problem reving high at all.

 

I don't see why the H22 crank/clutch or flywheel assembly would blow like that unless the stress placed upon getting the rods up and down cracked the crank though I find that highly unlikely as other things would fail before that.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SpdFrk &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Isn't the rod/stroke ratio on a h22a motor the same as a b18c and c5 motor? And they have no problem reving high at all.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The h22 actually does have a lower rod ratio than the B18C (1.49:1 vs 1.58:1), and both are not really optimized for high rpm-racing. The only exception is the B16A2 from the del sol & Civic Si (1.74:1). Traditionally, a rod ratio of 1.7:1 is usually considered the minimum for a high-performance engine. Some ultra-high output engines (like F1 or superbikes) have ratios as high as 2.2:1 !

I would not take the stock bottom end to 8500, but a fully built bottom end could definately handle the revs much better. Even though Hondas are blessed with a crank made of forged steel (all that I know of - from what my reading shows), unlike the typical cast iron dometic cranks, they still should be dynamically balanced to prevent tortional twist (twisting moments under load). Other tricks involving bearing thicknesses, etc. will help keep the bearings cool and ensure the hydrodynamic wedge of oil that the crank rides on will be maintained at high loads and rpms.

You guys shouldn't need proof that a built h22 can take higher than stock revs...just look at Papadakis's old civic with an H22. He was using the stock crank with undisclosed connecting rods and je pistons (with stock rod ratio). The bottom end was obviously balanced and the oil pump was upgraded. His shift rpm was 9200rpm. I'm not saying we all have motors built like that, but they can definately take the abuse.

...don't forget he was also using stock camshafts and made peak horsepower (700+hp) at 7800rpm

 

B18C and H22a have the SAME R/S ratio. 1.58

The B18A/B and the H23A have the same stroke.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">B18C and H22a have the SAME R/S ratio. 1.58

The B18A/B and the H23A have the same stroke.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually here are all the numbers for you to glance at:

D15 - 75mm B, 84.5mm S, 134mm RLength, RR = 1.59:1
D16 - 75mm B, 90mm S , 137mm RL , RR = 1.52:1
B18B- 81mm B, 89mm S , 137mm RL, RR = 1.54:1
B18C- 81mm B, 87.2mm S, 137.9mm RL, RR = 1.58:1
H22- 87mm B, 90.7mm S ,143mm RL, RR = 1.49:1
H23- 87mm B, 95mm S ,141.5mm RL, RR = 1.58:1
B16A2- 81mm B, 77mm S , 134mm RL, RR = 1.74:1

...write those down

(values taken from July 1999 issue of SCC in the 30pg article called "The 10-second Honda Phenomena" - a classic techincal write-up)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by XES &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
H22- 87mm B, 90.7mm S ,143mm RL, RR = 1.49:1
H23- 87mm B, 95mm S ,141.5mm RL, RR = 1.58:1
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Heh why would I write down incorrect numbers? That's a typo, do the math yourself. H22a is 1.58 while H23 is 1.49. H23a has the worse rod-stroke ratio. Hence my comment H22a has same r/s ratio as B18C is correct. But I concede I was using the wrong rod number for the B18B.

 

If it has the same as b18c then I dont think there is much to worry about. Cuz we all know how high you can take a B series.

 

Yep it looks like a minor typo.

143/90.7 = 1.587

141.5/95 = 1.489

Thanks for sharing that info XES, I have been searching for those values lately. Do you have the values for the b18c5 motor by any chance?

So what exactly is giving the stock B18c motors the edge over the H series when it comes to withstanding higher revs while still producing power?

 

probably the way the head flows, or cam specs...

This would probably be a great question for Alaniz, or portflow.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SilverEk3dr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">probably the way the head flows, or cam specs...

This would probably be a great question for Alaniz, or portflow. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually if u look at http://www.alaniztechnologies.com it shows a flow chart of a h22 head. It actually flows better than a b16 head. And the b16 head is one of the best flowing heads in stock form out of all b-series.

LS/vtec and b20/vtec engines have a 1.54:1 r/s ratio and i see people reving them high without any problems, so why don't h22 rev so high? Would it be because the stock cam specs?

 

A little OT but, SilverEK3dr what did you end up making power wise?

 

Ok. after blocking off the 4 low-end runners on the intake (stupid idea, but Ihad to learn my lesson) I'm going back this weekend if they have time

Here


(the blue line is what I am currently running with)
True, but guys out there are running the Ls rods with the custom pistons to acheive a similar to B18c R/s ratio.

Mark

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GudeH23a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do you have the values for the b18c5 motor by any chance?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

They are the same as a b18c engine.

137.8966/87.1982=1.58:1.

 

Article typo yes...but I do admit that I did not try the calculations myself. It was after 1am and tryed to pump out some data before I hit the sac. I would have caught it today when I looked at the post (but you already did). I knew that the h23 had more cylinder sidewall stress than the h22 (hence the lower ratio)...

Anyways...the rest of the garbage I said was right at least .

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SilverEk3dr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok. after blocking off the 4 low-end runners on the intake (stupid idea, but Ihad to learn my lesson) I'm going back this weekend if they have time

Here


(the blue line is what I am currently running with)
True, but guys out there are running the Ls rods with the custom pistons to acheive a similar to B18c R/s ratio.

Mark</TD></TR></TABLE>


Whoa whoa whoa hold the phone here. Which line is which?

Is the Blue line running them closed or open or stock crossover? Please explain!

 

That dyno dont really show much more than a shift on the powerband, and its really hard to tell which is which.

 

the dyno is the original dyno he had WITH the blocking off the low end runners

his setup https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=637095

he said he was gonna try to go back to the dyno this weekend.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Daboi630 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the dyno is the original dyno he had WITH the blocking off the low end runners

his setup https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=637095

he said he was gonna try to go back to the dyno this weekend. </TD></TR></TABLE>

LOL hahaha that's crazy, I guess he has since realized that you need BOTH to get the airflow you need. It will be good to see a comparison of all open vs. always closed.

 

if you actually study the graph.. it seems that it shifts the powerband later, now i can see one improvement for this.... oddly enough...

if the runners kicked it, they should only do so up till 7000, because at that point, all the extra air is causing a flow problem ?

because if he closes tehm, they bog at 4500 or so then at 7000, they level off flat and then peek more... so if they were closed until 4500 or so on both sheets thats a null point, but usually at that point they open, and you have more hp gains from 4500 to 7000, but oddly enough it gainst power aftewards if they are closed.... so when i look at this...

have them open from 4500 to 7000 and close again... and would give you some more power.. maybe a window switch could prove this theory ?

look at the graph... it's hard to see but you do see it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HotWheelz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if you actually study the graph.. it seems that it shifts the powerband later, now i can see one improvement for this.... oddly enough...

if the runners kicked it, they should only do so up till 7000, because at that point, all the extra air is causing a flow problem ?

because if he closes tehm, they bog at 4500 or so then at 7000, they level off flat and then peek more... so if they were closed until 4500 or so on both sheets thats a null point, but usually at that point they open, and you have more hp gains from 4500 to 7000, but oddly enough it gainst power aftewards if they are closed.... so when i look at this...

have them open from 4500 to 7000 and close again... and would give you some more power.. maybe a window switch could prove this theory ?

look at the graph... it's hard to see but you do see it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

No that's why I was confused too. Both runs are with it always closed, as he had a block plate in there. So one is before and after tuning.

He is going soon with the plate removed to tune.

So if he can get the dynoruns there and compare it to these..THEN we can draw some good analysis. Like where the optimum runner position is for Skunk2 stg 2 cams.

 

[QUOTE=GudeH23a]The main reason is due to the low rod/stroke ratio and the weaker crank that we have.....

Now I have been trying to search on the way the cranks have been made and I do not have concrete proof. Some say both are forged, others say h22a is forged and the h23a is cast. [QUOTE]

[QUOTE=XES]Even though Hondas are blessed with a crank made of forged steel (all that I know of - from what my reading shows)[QUOTE]

I'll be addressing this issue in an upcoming post...

I believe that the H22's crank should be able to rev to 8500 safely.
Of course, revving any engine that high will make it have a shorter life, but I think *comparatively* that in a streetable hipo car, the H22 can be revved pretty high and still not be too stressed.

 

heh well here's what happened to me at 8500 on an H23VTEC

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=441374

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ahhh judgement day....I love the smell of napalm in the morning

So we cracked the engine open


Looks good right? WRONG!

Look at that crack on the crankshaft counterweight!!! :eek:

Oh let's turn the crank a little!

Dammmmmn!!


So yeah the crank is cracked all the way through...it's like 2 pieces. Interesting to note that the crack is not near any of the knife-edged parts.

But wait! There's more! Did anyone notice the main cap? :eek:


Let me make this more obvious



Look at the bearings, completely melted/spun/messed/FUBAR




So yeah...that's pretty much it. It wasn't an oil issue at all. the crank broke and it ran for a while....then eventually the cap messed and jumped the t-belt.

Aghhhh I'm so tired. Input an condolences are welcomed Actually I should say I had a good laugh when my engine builder said he had never seen anything like that in his 20+ years of building race engines</TD></TR></TABLE>