Well I’m helping a cousin of mine build up his B20vtec motor. He currently has a B16a1 running PR3 ecu in his 89 civic si. He is getting tired of having no low-end power so what I have come up with for him is to go with a VERY basic B20vtec. This is what we plan to do:

STOCK b20 block
-apr rod bolt
-apr head bolts
-Full-Race dowel pins (thanks FFgeoff)
-SS line kit (thanks Stan aka Flamenco-T)
STOCK b16a1 head (cams, valve train, no milling)
-PR3 ecu with VAFC hack.
-keeping stock redline of 7500-7800rpms since the cams don’t make power over that.

Like I said earlier…..very basic. The only thing he wants from this is to get more lower end torque for the pleasure of daily driving. What I told him is that B20vtec is not to be taken lightly. However looking at what his goals are I do not see a problem with this setup. We are not trying to cut corners or by any means be cheap and ghetto. We will upgrade any parts of the setup if it is necessary to reach our goal.

All said and done what we would he happy with is a stock B20vtec with 135torque and 155 to 160whp with slight fuel management with a FPR and the VAFC. Does that figure seem about right? becuase if i'm correct ...hp is only a figure of tq, so when you add more displacement (TQ) you add more topend HP correct?

He is also planning on boosting with a greddy 18G kit off a 99si. He did boost on his stock B16 but did not like the lag of not reaching boost until 4500-4800rpms on that little 1.6 motor. So here are my questions:

1) should we stick with the AFC hack or save more money and get hondata stage2 for the PR3?

2) can we run dsm 440cc injectors (since he has a EF) with out any fuel adjustments on the afc ?

3) should we set the FPR at about 48psi or higher ...50psi?

4) will it be safe to start the motor with ZERO fuel adjustments and just let it idle on stock B16a1 fuel psi?

5) stock US spec B20z and stock B16a1 head will give a compression of 9.8 with a OEM B20 3layer head gasket correct???????


any advice would be great. Even if is off topic or what not. tips, cautions, warnings are appricated.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Charlie Moua &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">2) can we run dsm 440cc injectors (since he has a EF) with out any fuel adjustments on the afc ?

3) should we set the FPR at about 48psi or higher ...50psi?

4) will it be safe to start the motor with ZERO fuel adjustments and just let it idle on stock B16a1 fuel psi?</TD></TR></TABLE>
2) I tried that once and it did not work so good. You are going to have to take out enough fuel to get them into the 290-310cc range.

3) If you run the hack, then I would just leave the fpr alone since you will be using the afc.

4) I dont see why not.

 

prelude injectors are a bang for the buck upgrade if your looking into more fuel, rated at 270cc.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JD Milan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">prelude injectors are a bang for the buck upgrade if your looking into more fuel, rated at 270cc.</TD></TR></TABLE>

do they clip on just fine. If you read... this is for a OBD-0... not sure if it will work with Prelude injectors. DSM are way cheaper and easyer to find I think.

bump for a project thats realistic

 

which prelude injectors are you talking about, I run h22a prelude injectors and they are rated at 340 I believe.

and yes they clip on like oem and they have to be used with the injector resistor box so your all good there.

 

anyone else?

 

1) should we stick with the AFC hack or save more money and get hondata stage2 for the PR3? I'd step up to the Hondata, but that's just me. Better control of the motor

2) can we run dsm 440cc injectors (since he has a EF) with out any fuel adjustments on the afc ? you'll need to adjust the fuel down quite a bit, plus you'll need some way to mak it idle correcly

3) should we set the FPR at about 48psi or higher ...50psi? Oringinally, mine was that high, with the 440 inj. it's about 35psi

4) will it be safe to start the motor with ZERO fuel adjustments and just let it idle on stock B16a1 fuel psi?
absolutely, it will be rich-if using the 440s, but it will run.

 

argh hate dsm injectors

anyhow here you go

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=541960

 

thanks for the link bro.... dyno chart looks good for stock b20vtec!


So what will i need to run DSM injectors?
The car already has a resistor box.

what should be safe setting for the afc from 4500 to redline?

 

bump

 

maybe somthing along the lines of this?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dentilicious &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This is stock jdm b20b bottom with b17 head. short ram intake, ported tb, dented dc 4-2-1 header, greddy sp exhaust, high flow cat, msd 7al-2.



red is with stock cat, auto pr3. Blue is with "high flow" cat and mugen pr3.

Jay Kim


Modified by AllMotorMonster+ at 7:00 PM 6/21/2003</TD></TR></TABLE>


Modified by Charlie Moua at 8:02 PM 9/19/2003

 

1) stick with the afc SINCE your keeping it mild.
2) I would suggest adjusting the fuel accordingly when installing bigger injectors
3) set the fpr to what the car wants meaning dyno it and see


If you cousin wants to turbo it someday, get hondata now and save later.

 

<FONT COLOR="red"> I would just have to quote advanracing62, cause I think he touched on everything necessary, I agree almost 100% . </FONT>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by advanracing62 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1) should we stick with the AFC hack or save more money and get hondata stage2 for the PR3? I'd step up to the Hondata, but that's just me. Better control of the motor

<FONT COLOR="red"> I agree completely. Hondata would give you the control needed to run safer, and allow future upgrades. </FONT>

2) can we run dsm 440cc injectors (since he has a EF) with out any fuel adjustments on the afc ? you'll need to adjust the fuel down quite a bit, plus you'll need some way to mak it idle correcly

<FONT COLOR="red"> Exactly. not bringing the fuel down to a reasonable level will cause nothing but headaches. </FONT>

3) should we set the FPR at about 48psi or higher ...50psi? Oringinally, mine was that high, with the 440 inj. it's about 35psi

<FONT COLOR="red"> I would think that about 40psi would be needed, but never tuning a turbo B20/V before on a dyno myself, I can't be certain. I've seen a similar set up in an LS/V running 38psi, as it was necessary to reach a decent air/fuel #</FONT>

4) will it be safe to start the motor with ZERO fuel adjustments and just let it idle on stock B16a1 fuel psi?
absolutely, it will be rich-if using the 440s, but it will run. </TD></TR></TABLE>

<FONT COLOR="red"> It would run, but be lumpy, again the Hondata could help quite a bit </FONT>

QUOTE=
All said and done what we would he happy with is a stock B20vtec with 135torque and 155 to 160whp with slight fuel management with a FPR and the VAFC. Does that figure seem about right? becuase if i'm correct ...hp is only a figure of tq, so when you add more displacement (TQ) you add more topend HP correct?

<FONT COLOR="red">I think with what you've listed, 160hp, 135tq is certainly attainable. I've seen similar stock set ups put out more with tuning of the fuel and adj sprockets. </FONT>

 

Hp and torque goals are very attainable. My preference for fuel management is Hondata. Run it in my 1932cc Civic and my 1797cc ITR. Make sure that the block deck is flat, have a machine shop deck it if necessary. Same for the head. You want both surfaces nice and even to get a good head gasket seal. Stock fuel pressure should be fine N/A. Can't really answer for boost, that's not my area. If you run Hondata, or any good programmable engine management system, 440cc injectors are easily controlled. According to C-speed's compression calculator, this setup should be at about 9.96:1. Might want to upgrade the fuel pump too, particularly if running boost. Basically sounds like a good setup.

 

on a related note. How would my 'stock' lsvtec (ITR pistons, Z10 girdle, done over stock rods) respond with a stock B16 head on a stock B16 ecu? Will it run the thing? Will I be able to break it in properly? Will I be able to race it?

 

My friends b20/vtec (itr cams/intake manifold/skunk p28) made 164/124 baseline. It has a stock b20 bottom.

You might be able to get your desired amount with tuning, but since you would like to keep it mild, buy only things that you can use still while buidling your desired set up (I think you said a turbo?) So definitley get the Hondata because you will be able to use it later down the line as well as bigger size injectors (since Hondata will accomodate pretty much any cc).

As for adjusting fuel pressure and swapping a fuel pump, try to tune it as is then decide what should be done for your next step.

 

That's my dyno chart!

If you run your stock b16 fpr it'll be running lean, but will be fine. I drove from TX to CA(~1600miles) using stock b16 fpr. When I dynoed it with stock fpr, it made 149whp, 109lb-ft torque. But it actually helped me pass my smog, so I was happy.

The dyno graph is zig-zaggy because the 7AL i have is actually for V8 application.

Oh yeah...please please do enlarge the valve reliefs on your stock pistons. So you could use bigger cams in the future.

Jay Kim

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JD Milan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">prelude injectors are a bang for the buck upgrade if your looking into more fuel, rated at 270cc.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Please don't spread incorrect information, the '97+ Prelude injectors are rated at 290cc/min, and I have the balance and blueprinting documentation from RC Engineering to prove that.

Austin

 

1)Like it was said earlier, if the plans are for turbo...spend the extra money now and go with the Hondata. If you want it to be reliable, don't rely on band-aids.

2)The 440cc dsm injectors will require tuning since they will most likely run the engine rich. These may come in handy tho when you add that turbo since you'll need more fuel!

3)The only way to find a correct setting is to dyno tune it. It's hard to say how much pressure it'll need until you get on that dyno.

4)It should be safe to start but it'll more than likely run lean. Right now my car is running a stock B20 with the stock 96 CX fuel pump...no fuel tuning. I'm going to add a b16 fuel pump and adj FPR soon to be on the safe side.

5)I'm afraid I can't help ya on this one...I haven't researched the VTEC portion of B20s...I'm staying non-VTEC for now.

HTH, some good advice already stated...I'm probably just repeating it!

 

we made 183hp and 138tq from basicly the same setup except it was tuned with an aem ems

 

Personally id be very careful boosting a b20 block. they like to crack if not sleeved.

liam

 

NICE

 

bump for more opinions.

B20 sleeves are not that weak. I'm 100% confident that i will be able to take the 6-8psi.... tuned that is. anything above 12psi on a stock B20 gets scary.

 

http://ef-1.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=461

166hp and 135tq stock b20 block, stock b17 head

 

I'm not a big fan of AFC's so I'd say save for Hondata. You guys are so unlucky not to have Microtech in the States. Why do Aussies/Kiwis have to do all the standalone development hehehe

It'll rev harder than 7800

I dunno about DSM injectors but I'm running Mitsu GSR ones

Should be fine with stock FPR to drive around on