Hondata Heatshield is killing me!
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From: Nutley, NJ
Hondata Heatshield is killing me!
I'm not having good luck with this product at all!
First, the instructions say to use these plastic washers. When I started to torque the bolts down, this is what happened to the washers. Needless to say, I didn't use them!
Second, no matter how many times I torque down the IM bolts, they never stay torqued to spec. Meaning, they always loosen up. And what makes it so bad is that the coolant bypass hose runs through the IM gasket so that means that I can have coolant entering my combustion chamber.
I'm sure alot of you know that getting to these bolts is a big chore. It’s very frustrating to think that this is going to be a weekly maintenance thing!
The icing on the cake is that I have no noticeable improvement in performance!
The IM gets hot as usual.
Did anyone have the same experience as me with the heatshield? Does anyone have any suggestions?
First, the instructions say to use these plastic washers. When I started to torque the bolts down, this is what happened to the washers. Needless to say, I didn't use them!
Second, no matter how many times I torque down the IM bolts, they never stay torqued to spec. Meaning, they always loosen up. And what makes it so bad is that the coolant bypass hose runs through the IM gasket so that means that I can have coolant entering my combustion chamber.
I'm sure alot of you know that getting to these bolts is a big chore. It’s very frustrating to think that this is going to be a weekly maintenance thing!
The icing on the cake is that I have no noticeable improvement in performance!
The IM gets hot as usual.Did anyone have the same experience as me with the heatshield? Does anyone have any suggestions?
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From: somewhere in the valley,, BC.
My first suggestion is to lose the washers (which you've already done). The most recent heatshields from Hondata don't even include them.
As far as losing torque, I never had any issues even after reusing the gasket.
You could always use a lock washer on the IM fasteners, or maybe a dab of loctite?
As far as losing torque, I never had any issues even after reusing the gasket.
You could always use a lock washer on the IM fasteners, or maybe a dab of loctite?
Thread Starter
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From: Nutley, NJ
Re: (hypa)
Loctite may be a little hard cosidering that most of the fasteners are nuts instead of bolts.
Using lock washers sound like a good idea. Does anyone see a problem in using them? And do they actually work? thanks
Using lock washers sound like a good idea. Does anyone see a problem in using them? And do they actually work? thanks
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From: .
Re: (Mac8008)
There is a reason hondata does NOT include these with the gasket anymore. They suck!. Dont use them. I have the gasket installed, no washers.
EDIT: I used longer studs on the head as well. How did I know that before I got it you ask? I searched honda-tech, and found a thread suggesting that. So I got them.
EDIT: I used longer studs on the head as well. How did I know that before I got it you ask? I searched honda-tech, and found a thread suggesting that. So I got them.
Re: Hondata Heatshield is killing me! (Mac8008)
Here are all the solutions to possible problems with using the Hondata gasket.
1.) Plastic gasket might not seal as well as the OEM paper gaskets.
.I've never experienced this, but if you want to be safe about it, use (2) OEM paper gaskets to sandwich the Hondata gasket to prevent any vacuum leaks.
2.) Studs not long enough.
.I use M8x1.25x50mm studs. They're about $2.00/each from the hardware store and you'll need (10) of them. The OEM studs are 37mm in length. I'll post pics of the stuff test-fitted later on.
.len has also mentioned that you can use the RSX intake manifold studs, which I think were 42mm. I'll have to try and find that post in the ITR forum.
3.) Nylon washers get crushed when torquing them down.
.It's not a proven solution yet, but I'm going to try and use a M8 washer on top of the nylon washer to help beef it up to keep the nylon washer from collapsing.
4.) Hondata gaskets don't fit properly
.Dremel or drill out the holes for the studs and sections that protrude into the shoulder region of the ports..
.I've experienced this on both of the older race gaskets I've used, but I'm not sure if the newer non-race gaskets have this issue. Maybe I'll get a new one from KS and see.
1.) Plastic gasket might not seal as well as the OEM paper gaskets.
.I've never experienced this, but if you want to be safe about it, use (2) OEM paper gaskets to sandwich the Hondata gasket to prevent any vacuum leaks.
2.) Studs not long enough.
.I use M8x1.25x50mm studs. They're about $2.00/each from the hardware store and you'll need (10) of them. The OEM studs are 37mm in length. I'll post pics of the stuff test-fitted later on.
.len has also mentioned that you can use the RSX intake manifold studs, which I think were 42mm. I'll have to try and find that post in the ITR forum.
3.) Nylon washers get crushed when torquing them down.
.It's not a proven solution yet, but I'm going to try and use a M8 washer on top of the nylon washer to help beef it up to keep the nylon washer from collapsing.
4.) Hondata gaskets don't fit properly
.Dremel or drill out the holes for the studs and sections that protrude into the shoulder region of the ports..
.I've experienced this on both of the older race gaskets I've used, but I'm not sure if the newer non-race gaskets have this issue. Maybe I'll get a new one from KS and see.
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From: Nutley, NJ
Re: Hondata Heatshield is killing me! (IN VTEC)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IN VTEC »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Here are all the solutions to possible problems with using the Hondata gasket.
1.) Plastic gasket might not seal as well as the OEM paper gaskets.
.I've never experienced this, but if you want to be safe about it, use (2) OEM paper gaskets to sandwich the Hondata gasket to prevent any vacuum leaks.
2.) Studs not long enough.
.I use M8x1.25x50mm studs. They're about $2.00/each from the hardware store and you'll need (10) of them. The OEM studs are 37mm in length. I'll post pics of the stuff test-fitted later on.
.len has also mentioned that you can use the RSX intake manifold studs, which I think were 42mm. I'll have to try and find that post in the ITR forum.
3.) Nylon washers get crushed when torquing them down.
.It's not a proven solution yet, but I'm going to try and use a M8 washer on top of the nylon washer to help beef it up to keep the nylon washer from collapsing.
4.) Hondata gaskets don't fit properly
.Dremel or drill out the holes for the studs and sections that protrude into the shoulder region of the ports..
.I've experienced this on both of the older race gaskets I've used, but I'm not sure if the newer non-race gaskets have this issue. Maybe I'll get a new one from KS and see.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ya, well where is....
5.) Blots and Nuts won't hold torque spec.
That's the problem I'm really having.
And it's not because the bolts are too short. You can see in my pics they have enough room to hold torque.
1.) Plastic gasket might not seal as well as the OEM paper gaskets.
.I've never experienced this, but if you want to be safe about it, use (2) OEM paper gaskets to sandwich the Hondata gasket to prevent any vacuum leaks.
2.) Studs not long enough.
.I use M8x1.25x50mm studs. They're about $2.00/each from the hardware store and you'll need (10) of them. The OEM studs are 37mm in length. I'll post pics of the stuff test-fitted later on.
.len has also mentioned that you can use the RSX intake manifold studs, which I think were 42mm. I'll have to try and find that post in the ITR forum.
3.) Nylon washers get crushed when torquing them down.
.It's not a proven solution yet, but I'm going to try and use a M8 washer on top of the nylon washer to help beef it up to keep the nylon washer from collapsing.
4.) Hondata gaskets don't fit properly
.Dremel or drill out the holes for the studs and sections that protrude into the shoulder region of the ports..
.I've experienced this on both of the older race gaskets I've used, but I'm not sure if the newer non-race gaskets have this issue. Maybe I'll get a new one from KS and see.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ya, well where is....
5.) Blots and Nuts won't hold torque spec.
That's the problem I'm really having.
And it's not because the bolts are too short. You can see in my pics they have enough room to hold torque.
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From: Where the streets have no, name., USA
Outlaw Enginnering Phenolic Gaskets
You can always swap to a more "comprehensive" product:
http://www.outlawengineering.com
Their products are made from actual Phenolic material. This material has a lower coefficient of thermal conduction than the Teflon used by Hondata.
They also incorporate solutions to a number of the problems you have noted:
Longer studs/bolts are included (IM and TB).
TB Phenolic gasket is included.
Phenolic washers (1/8") AND M8 washers to protect them are included.
And If I'm not mistaked their kits come with 2 OEM IM and 2 OEM TB gaskets.
You can always use Permatex 1b (ruber-type gasketmaker, non-hardening, sensor-safe) to form gaskets around the Insulating gaskets instead of using OEM paper ones.
There are still limiting factors to the effectiveness of each of these products. . .
http://www.outlawengineering.com
Their products are made from actual Phenolic material. This material has a lower coefficient of thermal conduction than the Teflon used by Hondata.
They also incorporate solutions to a number of the problems you have noted:
Longer studs/bolts are included (IM and TB).
TB Phenolic gasket is included.
Phenolic washers (1/8") AND M8 washers to protect them are included.
And If I'm not mistaked their kits come with 2 OEM IM and 2 OEM TB gaskets.
You can always use Permatex 1b (ruber-type gasketmaker, non-hardening, sensor-safe) to form gaskets around the Insulating gaskets instead of using OEM paper ones.
There are still limiting factors to the effectiveness of each of these products. . .
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From: Where the streets have no, name., USA
Re: (Mac8008)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mac8008 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Using lock washers sound like a good idea. Does anyone see a problem in using them?</TD></TR></TABLE>
What are lock washers? You don't want to tighten the studs any further when you tightent the Nuts.
In other words: You want the torque fromt the nuts to "pull" on the studs rather than have the nut "grab" and turn the stud while tightening. You'll thread the stud in too deep and crack your head's IM mating surface.
So be cautions with anything that will "lock" to the stud.
What are lock washers? You don't want to tighten the studs any further when you tightent the Nuts.
In other words: You want the torque fromt the nuts to "pull" on the studs rather than have the nut "grab" and turn the stud while tightening. You'll thread the stud in too deep and crack your head's IM mating surface.
So be cautions with anything that will "lock" to the stud.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2002
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From: Nutley, NJ
Re: (WOTTEG)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WOTTEG »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
What are lock washers? You don't want to tighten the studs any further when you tightent the Nuts.
In other words: You want the torque fromt the nuts to "pull" on the studs rather than have the nut "grab" and turn the stud while tightening. You'll thread the stud in too deep and crack your head's IM mating surface.
So be cautions with anything that will "lock" to the stud. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I think I understand what your saying. So I guess lock washers ain't a good thing for this. I'm just plain screwed.
What are lock washers? You don't want to tighten the studs any further when you tightent the Nuts.
In other words: You want the torque fromt the nuts to "pull" on the studs rather than have the nut "grab" and turn the stud while tightening. You'll thread the stud in too deep and crack your head's IM mating surface.
So be cautions with anything that will "lock" to the stud.
</TD></TR></TABLE>I think I understand what your saying. So I guess lock washers ain't a good thing for this. I'm just plain screwed.
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From: Where the streets have no, name., USA
Re: (Mac8008)
It does sound like the coefficient of thermal EXPANSIOn of the teflon is not condusive to this purpose.
I'd check out the Outlaw Engineering product, especially since you are already familiar with the processof installing the gaskets.
I do recommend following ALL the steps in their instructions. Some people decide to cut corners, and not remove all the OEM gasket, or not to disconnect the fuel lines, or not remove the whole IM.
I have found that these "shortcuts" are actually the long way through the woods.
And NEVER torque a stud to the spec of it's nut. The stud only needs to go in as far as it's diameter. If an 8mm stud is "finger tight" and threaded at least 8mm into the hole, then all is good.
I learned this the hard way. . . .
This is true for any stud, Head, Intake Manifold, Exhaust Manifold, or otherwise.
I'd check out the Outlaw Engineering product, especially since you are already familiar with the processof installing the gaskets.
I do recommend following ALL the steps in their instructions. Some people decide to cut corners, and not remove all the OEM gasket, or not to disconnect the fuel lines, or not remove the whole IM.
I have found that these "shortcuts" are actually the long way through the woods.
And NEVER torque a stud to the spec of it's nut. The stud only needs to go in as far as it's diameter. If an 8mm stud is "finger tight" and threaded at least 8mm into the hole, then all is good.
I learned this the hard way. . . .
This is true for any stud, Head, Intake Manifold, Exhaust Manifold, or otherwise.
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From: Nutley, NJ
Re: (WOTTEG)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WOTTEG »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It does sound like the coefficient of thermal EXPANSIOn of the teflon is not condusive to this purpose.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's the same thing I was about to say.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WOTTEG »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'd check out the Outlaw Engineering product, especially since you are already familiar with the processof installing the gaskets.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Nah, Don't think so. I only did this because I had to take the cylinder head off anyway. I'd rather take a bullet in the head than to do all that work for this bullshit mod.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's the same thing I was about to say.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WOTTEG »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'd check out the Outlaw Engineering product, especially since you are already familiar with the processof installing the gaskets.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Nah, Don't think so. I only did this because I had to take the cylinder head off anyway. I'd rather take a bullet in the head than to do all that work for this bullshit mod.
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From: .
Re: Hondata Heatshield is killing me! (Mac8008)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mac8008 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Ya, well where is....
5.) Blots and Nuts won't hold torque spec.
That's the problem I'm really having.
And it's not because the bolts are too short. You can see in my pics they have enough room to hold torque.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Read directions. Torque them, drive the time it says, re torque them while its hot. Dont touch them again. your done.
Modified by ragejed at 5:39 AM 8/19/2003
Ya, well where is....
5.) Blots and Nuts won't hold torque spec.
That's the problem I'm really having.
And it's not because the bolts are too short. You can see in my pics they have enough room to hold torque.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Read directions. Torque them, drive the time it says, re torque them while its hot. Dont touch them again. your done.
Modified by ragejed at 5:39 AM 8/19/2003
Junior Member
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From: Bay Area, CA
Re: Hondata Heatshield is killing me! (ragejed)
snice it doesnt bolt right on, do you guy think it worth the extra trouble?
what about the stuff on outlawengineering.com?
Modified by EF_89Civic at 5:21 AM 8/19/2003
what about the stuff on outlawengineering.com?
Modified by EF_89Civic at 5:21 AM 8/19/2003
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Irvine, CA
Re: Hondata Heatshield is killing me! (ragejed)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ragejed »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Read directions. Towrue them, drive the time it says, re torque them while its hot. Dont touch them again. your done.</TD></TR></TABLE>
puhahah torque while it's hot while strip the thread.
Read directions. Towrue them, drive the time it says, re torque them while its hot. Dont touch them again. your done.</TD></TR></TABLE>
puhahah torque while it's hot while strip the thread.
Thread Starter
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From: Nutley, NJ
Re: Hondata Heatshield is killing me! (EF_89Civic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EF_89Civic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">snice it doesnt bolt right on, do you guy think it worth the extra trouble?
what about the stuff on outlawengineering.com?
Modified by EF_89Civic at 5:21 AM 8/19/2003</TD></TR></TABLE>\
HELL no!
what about the stuff on outlawengineering.com?
Modified by EF_89Civic at 5:21 AM 8/19/2003</TD></TR></TABLE>\
HELL no!
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From: .
Re: Hondata Heatshield is killing me! (integrasi)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by integrasi »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
puhahah torque while it's hot while strip the thread. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Read the instructions. The little amount of torque you need for those bolts will NOT strip anything. Use the beam torque wrench, tighten in the proper pattern, and your all set.
puhahah torque while it's hot while strip the thread.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Read the instructions. The little amount of torque you need for those bolts will NOT strip anything. Use the beam torque wrench, tighten in the proper pattern, and your all set.
Member
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From: T Town, G35Land
Re: Hondata Heatshield is killing me! (ragejed)
One the 4 I've installed, I've never had that problem of the nuts not staying in place. You are tightening inside out in the proper order right?
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From: Sears Point, CA
The only issues that I had when we installed the gasket was the lovely washer crushed(no longer provided in the kit) and I had a whole bunch of coolant that was burning through the engine, which was my fault since we pulled the head at the same time, coolant made it's way into the combustion chamber and took a little while to burn out.
Austin - who is very happy with his Hondata insulating gasket
Austin - who is very happy with his Hondata insulating gasket
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From: .
Re: (Austin)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Austin »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The only issues that I had when we installed the gasket was the lovely washer crushed(no longer provided in the kit) and I had a whole bunch of coolant that was burning through the engine, which was my fault since we pulled the head at the same time, coolant made it's way into the combustion chamber and took a little while to burn out.
Austin - who is very happy with his Hondata insulating gasket</TD></TR></TABLE>
My coolant is missing too
no leaks..
Austin - who is very happy with his Hondata insulating gasket</TD></TR></TABLE>
My coolant is missing too
no leaks..
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