ABS or not to ABS
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From: Oxnard, CA, USA
ABS or not to ABS
My friend and I are arguing about ABS. I took mine out. So what is the advantages of having ABS and not having it?
He thinks it's really an important feature in a car because "you have a BETTER controlled stop with ABS in an emergency" and "because 99% of your driving is on the road" and that the "ABS should go back in "
I told him I took it out becuase I like to run my car on the tracks. Also, in the performance world, people like feel. Stiffer springs, shocks. Some people take out power steering, etc. Same with ABS. I have steel braided lines, four wheel disc break on my Civic EX. I can totally have feel for the car, even in daily driving, which is 99% of my driving.
Modified by cpforyou at 9:08 PM 7/25/2003
He thinks it's really an important feature in a car because "you have a BETTER controlled stop with ABS in an emergency" and "because 99% of your driving is on the road" and that the "ABS should go back in "
I told him I took it out becuase I like to run my car on the tracks. Also, in the performance world, people like feel. Stiffer springs, shocks. Some people take out power steering, etc. Same with ABS. I have steel braided lines, four wheel disc break on my Civic EX. I can totally have feel for the car, even in daily driving, which is 99% of my driving.
Modified by cpforyou at 9:08 PM 7/25/2003
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From: Eugene, OR, USA
Re: ABS or not to ABS (cpforyou)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by cpforyou »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">He thinks it's really an important feature in a car because "you have a BETTER controlled stop with ABS in an emergency" and "because 99% of your driving is on the road" and that the "ABS should go back in "
Modified by cpforyou at 8:13 PM 7/25/2003</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm with your friend. ABS makes one hell of a difference in quick stops and maneuvering. Without it, you'll lock the wheels anytime you have to hit em hard. Here in the colder climates, if you don't have them, winter driving is extra fun.
The same goes for rain. Feel of the car or not, you'll be a lot safer with them, and any performance gain you would have by uninstalling them is negligable.
Modified by cpforyou at 8:13 PM 7/25/2003</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm with your friend. ABS makes one hell of a difference in quick stops and maneuvering. Without it, you'll lock the wheels anytime you have to hit em hard. Here in the colder climates, if you don't have them, winter driving is extra fun.
The same goes for rain. Feel of the car or not, you'll be a lot safer with them, and any performance gain you would have by uninstalling them is negligable.
Joined: Jul 2003
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Re: ABS or not to ABS (cpforyou)
Ok first off he skewd the argument. I'm the other guy
His premise was "ABS is for stupid people" and overrated.
This premise is incorrect and this is why
1.In a long emergency stop ABS gives you a more controlled stop and it does this better than a car without ABS
2. It's design was for the road and not for AutoX
Therefore although the original intention for ABS might have been to help those who don't pulse the pedal and cause lock-ups the design came to help everyone and it is not just for "stupid people" nor is it overrated.
Next: I never said ABS a "really" important feature ...he exaggerated that point I believe to make a stronger point. It's not the end all if you don't have it. I had a 95 RS with no ABS and I survived just fine thax.
Now to sum up my OPINION why the ABS that he already has should go back in. This was at the end of the "heated" debate. His "Drag" car is on the road 99% of the time, it's his only car. Now seeing has how ABS gives you a better controlled stop and you already have it ..why not keep it. He's not autox through the streets nor his he drag racing (I hope) down Anystreet USA. That part is just my opinion. Now the above premise "ABS is for stupid people" or overrated is incorrect. ABS does what he can't do on the road it does what it's designed to do on the road.
His premise was "ABS is for stupid people" and overrated.
This premise is incorrect and this is why
1.In a long emergency stop ABS gives you a more controlled stop and it does this better than a car without ABS
2. It's design was for the road and not for AutoX
Therefore although the original intention for ABS might have been to help those who don't pulse the pedal and cause lock-ups the design came to help everyone and it is not just for "stupid people" nor is it overrated.
Next: I never said ABS a "really" important feature ...he exaggerated that point I believe to make a stronger point. It's not the end all if you don't have it. I had a 95 RS with no ABS and I survived just fine thax.
Now to sum up my OPINION why the ABS that he already has should go back in. This was at the end of the "heated" debate. His "Drag" car is on the road 99% of the time, it's his only car. Now seeing has how ABS gives you a better controlled stop and you already have it ..why not keep it. He's not autox through the streets nor his he drag racing (I hope) down Anystreet USA. That part is just my opinion. Now the above premise "ABS is for stupid people" or overrated is incorrect. ABS does what he can't do on the road it does what it's designed to do on the road.
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: Eugene, OR, USA
Re: ABS or not to ABS (WRXNSX)
I agree with you. Since it's a road car better than 90% of the time, he should have the safety feature. I'm not even sure what kind of performance he could hope to gain by removing them. Yes, you don't need them (I drive a civic DX), but, in my experience (incliment weather, quick stops), they help a lot.
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From: Alhambra, CA
Re: ABS or not to ABS
ABS is generally a good thing, but some people disable them in the east because road hazards cause the ABS to function unexpectingly, like gravel, sand, ice, snow, mud, potholes, and even rain. The ABS cannot make up for road conditions or bad judgment, sometimes making it worst for these conditions.
In deep snow or gravel it's actually better for the wheel's to lock up. On completely glare ice, locked wheels will often stop a car faster because even though the sliding friction is less than non-sliding friction, it is applied 100% of the time rather than only the part of the time when the brakes are pulsed on.
In deep snow or gravel it's actually better for the wheel's to lock up. On completely glare ice, locked wheels will often stop a car faster because even though the sliding friction is less than non-sliding friction, it is applied 100% of the time rather than only the part of the time when the brakes are pulsed on.
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Re: ABS or not to ABS (All-Motor H22A)
Unless you have top of the line ABS, some of the older ABS systems actually take longer to stop your car. If you have high performance tires, you'll hardly see ABS kicks in at all.
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From: Alhambra, CA
Re: ABS or not to ABS (fox297)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fox297 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Unless you have top of the line ABS, some of the older ABS systems actually take longer to stop your car. If you have high performance tires, you'll hardly see ABS kicks in at all.</TD></TR></TABLE>
True, there's a maintenance issue as well. Some older ABS system take longer. Aside from that, sometimes if an ABS fails, and the driver doesn't know, he relies on ABS to stop him, he pushes the brakes down hard, and he ends up skidding out as the ABS doesn't kick in.
It should only be taken out for the hardcore people who drive their car to the fullest and can't afford to have their ABS fail or even maintain it. They just rely on the old pump the brake method. Sometimes simplicity is better, less things to worry about.
But if you're a normal person, and you maintain it, ABS gives you lots of benefits. Most people as a natural reaction slam on the brakes hard when they're in danger and lose control as they don't pump the brakes. Instead of educating the public, Mecedes realized this problem so they started to put them in their cars in 1985 as standard equipment.
Modified by All-Motor H22A at 11:03 AM 7/26/2003
True, there's a maintenance issue as well. Some older ABS system take longer. Aside from that, sometimes if an ABS fails, and the driver doesn't know, he relies on ABS to stop him, he pushes the brakes down hard, and he ends up skidding out as the ABS doesn't kick in.
It should only be taken out for the hardcore people who drive their car to the fullest and can't afford to have their ABS fail or even maintain it. They just rely on the old pump the brake method. Sometimes simplicity is better, less things to worry about.
But if you're a normal person, and you maintain it, ABS gives you lots of benefits. Most people as a natural reaction slam on the brakes hard when they're in danger and lose control as they don't pump the brakes. Instead of educating the public, Mecedes realized this problem so they started to put them in their cars in 1985 as standard equipment.
Modified by All-Motor H22A at 11:03 AM 7/26/2003
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From: Eugene, OR, USA
Re: ABS or not to ABS (All-Motor H22A)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by All-Motor H22A »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
In deep snow or gravel it's actually better for the wheel's to lock up. On completely glare ice, locked wheels will often stop a car faster because even though the sliding friction is less than non-sliding friction, it is applied 100% of the time rather than only the part of the time when the brakes are pulsed on.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
True, but it's been my personal experience that, unless you've got a balance controller, the ABS, while it may not apply that friction continually, allows you to maintain some form of traction instead of completely skidding. If I punch the brakes in my civic (non-ABS) during the winter, chances are I end up completely sideways (I've done this in parking lots a few times). If I use my mom's accord (ABS), I at least maintain the same direction, even if it takes me almost as long to stop.
Personally, I'd rather rear-end someone at a low rate of speed than end up sideways in an oncoming lane.
In deep snow or gravel it's actually better for the wheel's to lock up. On completely glare ice, locked wheels will often stop a car faster because even though the sliding friction is less than non-sliding friction, it is applied 100% of the time rather than only the part of the time when the brakes are pulsed on.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
True, but it's been my personal experience that, unless you've got a balance controller, the ABS, while it may not apply that friction continually, allows you to maintain some form of traction instead of completely skidding. If I punch the brakes in my civic (non-ABS) during the winter, chances are I end up completely sideways (I've done this in parking lots a few times). If I use my mom's accord (ABS), I at least maintain the same direction, even if it takes me almost as long to stop.
Personally, I'd rather rear-end someone at a low rate of speed than end up sideways in an oncoming lane.
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Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Oxnard, CA, USA
Re: ABS or not to ABS (WRXNSX)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WRXNSX »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok first off he skewd the argument. I'm the other guy
His premise was "ABS is for stupid people" and overrated.
This premise is incorrect and this is why
1.In a long emergency stop ABS gives you a more controlled stop and it does this better than a car without ABS
2. It's design was for the road and not for AutoX
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I never said it was overrated. Yes, ABS is designed for stupid people. That's what it's original purpose was. Maybe that's not the case today, but back in the days, people take driver's ed classes and they teach you to pump your brakes. People were still panicing and just slamming their brakes, skidding, and the accident rates were still high. So what happened?
Yes, the mad scientists in the drawing board came up with the idea of assisted braking, known today as ABS Brakes. The Europeans were the first to widely implement it, and everybody start to follow suit.
ABS monitors the wheels with sensors. If you're a regular drive who goes to the grocery and work all day long, ABS will help. When you need it, you will brake hard, the ABS will sense a changed condition and do it's work.
ABS doesn't help for those people who drive in conditions that change all the time. Such examples are drag racing and road racing. Through twists and turns, constantly braking and acceleration, you are exposing the car to conditions that change all the time. ABS can be activated when you don't want it to, and it can give the driver a disadvantage. ABS is a form of traction control. Some of the newer performance cars w/ traction control give you the option to disable it. If it was so good, why give the option to disable it? It's because some weekend warriors will drive to the tracks, disable it just for the tracks, and enable it when they drive home. For those who rely on ABS, if it fails, you're DEAD. You press it hard, ABS doesn't kick in, and you SKID! ABS is a complicated system. I prefer the basic 4 wheel disc brakes, a much simpler system. So I know if I skid, I'll pump the brakes, NO MATTER WHAT.
But for someone like us, who can't flip it with the switch, we can either spend 1 hour before track day to disable it, and another hour enabling it when they get home. That's just timing consuming. So most people on Honda-Tech who have to choose, they will disable their ABS.
His premise was "ABS is for stupid people" and overrated.
This premise is incorrect and this is why
1.In a long emergency stop ABS gives you a more controlled stop and it does this better than a car without ABS
2. It's design was for the road and not for AutoX
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I never said it was overrated. Yes, ABS is designed for stupid people. That's what it's original purpose was. Maybe that's not the case today, but back in the days, people take driver's ed classes and they teach you to pump your brakes. People were still panicing and just slamming their brakes, skidding, and the accident rates were still high. So what happened?
Yes, the mad scientists in the drawing board came up with the idea of assisted braking, known today as ABS Brakes. The Europeans were the first to widely implement it, and everybody start to follow suit.
ABS monitors the wheels with sensors. If you're a regular drive who goes to the grocery and work all day long, ABS will help. When you need it, you will brake hard, the ABS will sense a changed condition and do it's work.
ABS doesn't help for those people who drive in conditions that change all the time. Such examples are drag racing and road racing. Through twists and turns, constantly braking and acceleration, you are exposing the car to conditions that change all the time. ABS can be activated when you don't want it to, and it can give the driver a disadvantage. ABS is a form of traction control. Some of the newer performance cars w/ traction control give you the option to disable it. If it was so good, why give the option to disable it? It's because some weekend warriors will drive to the tracks, disable it just for the tracks, and enable it when they drive home. For those who rely on ABS, if it fails, you're DEAD. You press it hard, ABS doesn't kick in, and you SKID! ABS is a complicated system. I prefer the basic 4 wheel disc brakes, a much simpler system. So I know if I skid, I'll pump the brakes, NO MATTER WHAT.
But for someone like us, who can't flip it with the switch, we can either spend 1 hour before track day to disable it, and another hour enabling it when they get home. That's just timing consuming. So most people on Honda-Tech who have to choose, they will disable their ABS.
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Re: ABS or not to ABS (cpforyou)
1st off you did say ABS is overrated
CPFORYOU: ABS is overrates <--you had a typo but that's what you said
2nd
"For those who rely on ABS, if it fails, you're DEAD. You press it hard, ABS doesn't kick in, and you SKID! ABS is a complicated system. "
A. ABS is a proven system and adding all the "ifs" might be fun BUT those are the far and inbetween exceptions.
Lastly
Do you feel that good drivers dont need ABS? You sounded like a real elitist when we had our debate.
CPFORYOU: ABS is overrates <--you had a typo but that's what you said
2nd
"For those who rely on ABS, if it fails, you're DEAD. You press it hard, ABS doesn't kick in, and you SKID! ABS is a complicated system. "
A. ABS is a proven system and adding all the "ifs" might be fun BUT those are the far and inbetween exceptions.
Lastly
Do you feel that good drivers dont need ABS? You sounded like a real elitist when we had our debate.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,395
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From: Oxnard, CA, USA
Re: ABS or not to ABS (WRXNSX)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WRXNSX »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1st off you did say ABS is overrated
CPFORYOU: ABS is overrates <--you had a typo but that's what you said
2nd
"For those who rely on ABS, if it fails, you're DEAD. You press it hard, ABS doesn't kick in, and you SKID! ABS is a complicated system. "
A. ABS is a proven system and adding all the "ifs" might be fun BUT those are the far and inbetween exceptions.
Lastly
Do you feel that good drivers dont need ABS? You sounded like a real elitist when we had our debate.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I saved the conversation and I do not see where I said that. Paste the more than one sentence please.
Yes, ABS is a proven system, but what's in an ABS system?
1. Four Speed Sensors
2. Four Impulse Pickup Sensor
2. ABS Control Unit Computer
3. Pump Valve
6. Accumulator
7. Brake Pressure Adjusting Valve
8. Brake Pressure Modulating Electrovalve Unit
These are things not found in a non-ABS System. At least I dont' have to worry about it breaking.
Good drivers can benefit from ABS. Drivers who are out in ever changing conditions can benefit from no-ABS.
And yes, they can fail. If you had came to the race tracks with me today, my friend has his ABS making noises because it's broken. So he had to disable it.
CPFORYOU: ABS is overrates <--you had a typo but that's what you said
2nd
"For those who rely on ABS, if it fails, you're DEAD. You press it hard, ABS doesn't kick in, and you SKID! ABS is a complicated system. "
A. ABS is a proven system and adding all the "ifs" might be fun BUT those are the far and inbetween exceptions.
Lastly
Do you feel that good drivers dont need ABS? You sounded like a real elitist when we had our debate.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I saved the conversation and I do not see where I said that. Paste the more than one sentence please.
Yes, ABS is a proven system, but what's in an ABS system?
1. Four Speed Sensors
2. Four Impulse Pickup Sensor
2. ABS Control Unit Computer
3. Pump Valve
6. Accumulator
7. Brake Pressure Adjusting Valve
8. Brake Pressure Modulating Electrovalve Unit
These are things not found in a non-ABS System. At least I dont' have to worry about it breaking.
Good drivers can benefit from ABS. Drivers who are out in ever changing conditions can benefit from no-ABS.
And yes, they can fail. If you had came to the race tracks with me today, my friend has his ABS making noises because it's broken. So he had to disable it.
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: Palmdale, CA
Re: ABS or not to ABS (cpforyou)
You guys are like little kids. This is more or less an opinion thread.
ABS has gotten better and better. They are not primitive like older models back in the days. ABS can help save lives. They assist in braking and you can control the car easier while braking. ABS is usually a
On the other hand, ABS can kick in when you don't want it to. I took out my ABS and my lap times at Willow Springs are consistently quicker. I can brake, feel the pedal force w/o worrying about ABS kicking in too early and making my car slow down prematurely for a turn. ABS at Willow Springs is
I personally like not having ABS, just like the many people who take out their power steering.
ABS has gotten better and better. They are not primitive like older models back in the days. ABS can help save lives. They assist in braking and you can control the car easier while braking. ABS is usually a
On the other hand, ABS can kick in when you don't want it to. I took out my ABS and my lap times at Willow Springs are consistently quicker. I can brake, feel the pedal force w/o worrying about ABS kicking in too early and making my car slow down prematurely for a turn. ABS at Willow Springs is
I personally like not having ABS, just like the many people who take out their power steering.
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