Got a new wheel alignment the other day. "Before" settings showed that I had way too much toe which explains the excessive tire wear I 've noticed lately.

The car is lowered 1.75" with GCs and the Front left toe was -0.31 and right -0.30. Rear toe was around -0.2. So I told the guy to set the toe to 0 in the back and slight toe out in the front but still close to 0.
Final settings: -0.01 both front and +0.09 rear. Car is a lot more stable on the highway and it now tracks straight. Got to the auto-x event the next day, put the V700s on and to my disappointment the car did not handle as well. It seemed to be a lot more tail-happy too and I spun out unexpectedly at 3 different runs.
All said and done I was 1-2 secs. (~55 sec. course) slower when I compared my times to many other drivers I 've been racing with for years.

Does toe-out make that much difference in handling? Should I toe out the wheels a little more? I was thinking -0.1 in the front and at least go to 0.00 in the back, will that make a difference or is 0.09 pretty close to 0 and just leave it?
The car was a lot better planted before in the sweepers and turns with the previous toe settings of -0.3 & -0.2, but it seemed to wear out the street tires faster. I 'd like to hear some recommendations and what you 've experienced when you 'toed-in' the wheels or put more toe-out. I felt a considerable difference. Even on the street it doesn't handle as well now with less toe-out. I wish I could say that it 's me or that I have to change my driving habits, but the speed at which I could take sweepers before was noticeably reduced and the rear has become very loose and cannot get good traction, even when changing lanes semi-fast, it almost came around on me on the way home. Even the slalom presented me with the difficult task of keeping the car from looping (after I spun out on the first run) when before I used to fly through them on almost full throttle Maybe I need to mess around with the shocks again but I doubt I 'm going to get a full second+ out of that.. thanks for any advice you may have on this matter.

 

oh btw, camber is FL -1.3, FR -1.6. RL -1.0, RR -1.3

 

Toe will make a big difference. I would set the front to -.1 and start from there. I use that setting with -1.6camber and have pretty even tire wear.

 

Have you ever corner weighted the car? You might have a weight imbalance that is contributing to the handling characteristics you describe.

If you are competing in autoX it is a worthwhile investment.

You will of course have to re-do the alignment after that - but they will be able to help you with respect to the camber settings as well.

 

screw corner weighting, its not that important and not relevent to this specific experience.

yes, toe is extremely important in handling. you want to be toed OUT in the FRONT. im not sure about autox, but RR i try to get my front toed out 1/16" a side. the rears should be straight, or perhaps toed in about 1/32" each. just to be clear, if you exaggerate the toe and look down from a birds eye view, the wheels will make an X. since i dont know an autox setup, what i do remember is that someone told me that he sets his civic just at the edge of the factory recommendations and just keeps it there, and concentrates on driving. i think thats really good advice.

i mistakenly raced front toed in once, and it sucked. tires couldnt take it. im not sure if you understand slip angles, but tires flex in a turn and different amounts from the front and back of a single contact patch of the tire, that difference is the slip angle. there is a certain amount of slip angle your tires work best at (something like 7 degrees for race slicks, unsure about DOT tires), not much after that optimal angle the amount of traction sharply drops off and you lose considerable amount of grip, which will probably break traction and slide. and toe settings alter the slip angle of the tire, and thus the amount of traction to each tire. so the obvious goal is to set the toe to maximize amount of grip, dependent on the speed and vehicle.

 

Corner weighting is important. Why do you say its not?

If the car "unexpectedly" spun and the alignment is not extreme then something else might be wrong (like corner weights).

The alignment you have now might not be the fastest but should not account for a 1-2 second difference. What exactly has changed on the car?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">screw corner weighting, its not that important and not relevent to this specific experience</TD></TR></TABLE>

Integras have serious weight imbalances that can be improved through cornerweighting.

Why do you say that it is "not relevent" (sic)?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Big Phat R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Integras have serious weight imbalances that can be improved through cornerweighting.

Why do you say that it is "not relevent" (sic)?

</TD></TR></TABLE>

because a screwed up cross weight will make the car turn one way really poorly, and the other way really good. ie, the car will understeer more in _all_ left handers, but by loose in _all_ right handers. the symptoms being described do not fit this.

alignment is also important for track times because a car that you are comfortable driving is one that you can drive fast comfortably. being relaxed behind the wheel=faster then being tense behind the wheel.

for autocross i use toe out at both ends of the car. i've driven it at limerock and nhis like this and have had no problems on track with the car being twitchy or excessively loose. but then, i used tire pressures to make the car a little on the tight side and only drove at 8/10ths instead of my normal autocross 11/10ths. fwiw.

nate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTEConly &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Got a new wheel alignment the other day. "Before" settings showed that I had way too much toe which explains the excessive tire wear I 've noticed lately.

The car is lowered 1.75" with GCs and the Front left toe was -0.31 and right -0.30. Rear toe was around -0.2. So I told the guy to set the toe to 0 in the back and slight toe out in the front but still close to 0.
Final settings: -0.01 both front and +0.09 rear. Car is a lot more stable on the highway and it now tracks straight. Got to the auto-x event the next day, put the V700s on and to my disappointment the car did not handle as well. It seemed to be a lot more tail-happy too and I spun out unexpectedly at 3 different runs.
All said and done I was 1-2 secs. (~55 sec. course) slower when I compared my times to many other drivers I 've been racing with for years.

Does toe-out make that much difference in handling? Should I toe out the wheels a little more? I was thinking -0.1 in the front and at least go to 0.00 in the back, will that make a difference or is 0.09 pretty close to 0 and just leave it?
The car was a lot better planted before in the sweepers and turns with the previous toe settings of -0.3 & -0.2, but it seemed to wear out the street tires faster. I 'd like to hear some recommendations and what you 've experienced when you 'toed-in' the wheels or put more toe-out. I felt a considerable difference. Even on the street it doesn't handle as well now with less toe-out. I wish I could say that it 's me or that I have to change my driving habits, but the speed at which I could take sweepers before was noticeably reduced and the rear has become very loose and cannot get good traction, even when changing lanes semi-fast, it almost came around on me on the way home. Even the slalom presented me with the difficult task of keeping the car from looping (after I spun out on the first run) when before I used to fly through them on almost full throttle Maybe I need to mess around with the shocks again but I doubt I 'm going to get a full second+ out of that.. thanks for any advice you may have on this matter. </TD></TR></TABLE>

a few guesses as to what i think might be going on. your previous alignment would have been significantly looser then your current alignment. you were probably expecting that rotation, never found it and consequently found yourself overdriving the car for how it was handling, making it push worse, and then lifting to try and get it to turn in. thus the spin. the 1-2 second drop in your times was more likely caused by your distraction with how the car was working then any deficiency (sp?) in the car itself. without being in the car when it happened, nor driving the car it is hard to say exactly what happened.

some notes on how toe will affect cornering:

front toe out: small amounts can improve corner entry response. excessive toe out will reduce steady state corning grip, overheat the inside edge of the tire, and cost you speed in a straight line.

rear toe out: small amounts can help steady state cornering. car will also be a little looser on corner entry. excessive toe out will make the car unstable.

front toe in: not recommended on a fwd car. corner entry is less responsive and steady state grip is reduced. the tires essentially fight each other throughout the corner.

rear toe in: car is more stable at the price of mid-corner rotation. corner entry is also more stable.

hope that helps some.

nate

disclaimer: others may have found different results. the above comments are only what i've experienced with my car.

 

thanks Spence and all the others!

I think you might be partially right about the "distraction" Spence, and it's possible I was overdriving but I know my car really well, and this is my 4th season with this car, plus the setup has not changed since last year and the height is still the same for the last 6 events I 've done this season so far.
I did get some private e-mails from some and it seems the consensus is to go with around -0.1 toe out in the front and 0.00 in the rear (not +0.9-1.0 like they are now).
The major reduction of toe-out from -0.3 to -0.01 in the front definitely made me notice a reduction in cornering speed and steady state speed. That, plus the "WTF?" in my head while I was going through the course, distracted me, especially because I felt that the car had changed. I appreciate everyone's comments!