Gingerman had an open track night this week, and I brought my Type R up. This is only my second time on the track, and I was definitely pretty HARD on the brakes before the corners.

After 4-5 laps, my brakes got progressively wobbly, where the brake pedal and steering were pulsating. After awhile, it got almost unbearable, where it felt like the front of the car was 'bouncing'. The braking power still seemed like it was there, but the pulsating was an issue.

I read some old posts from people w/the similar symptoms, and some suggested that was the ABS, etc...but I don't think that was it, because my ABS usually only goes off when the wheels get a bit off the ground when I hit bumps, and I hear a buzzing-type sound.

Others suggested it may be the rotors. However, I let my car cool down for a long time, and the problem seemed to go away. It came back later, but not nearly as bad. I was also a bit easier on the brakes. I would think if the rotors were warped, they would stay warped, correct? Everything was cooking, the whole RIM was HOT! Smoke was present...

The next day, everything felt ok. I had the mushiness in the pedal, which I'm assuming a brake bleed will fix. I didn't get any wobbling sensation from the front brakes.

My setup is the original stock pads, rotors, fluid, etc. 45,000 miles on car.

Here's my questions:

1-What was going on? Can the rotors be so hot, that they can "temporarily" warp?

2-Anything wrong w/my stock setup? Could this be a pad issue? How about the fluid? Any worthwhile upgrades that would alleviate this?

3-Is brake ducting worth looking into?

Reading the old posts, I get the impression that fancy rotors and calipers aren't worth the cash, especially for someone like me who casually goes to the track. I could swing some new pads and fluid, though, if that would fix it...

Thanks in advance! Looking forward to getting back on the track.

 

New pads and new fluid are almost a must if u track you car.
the stock fluid really boils too easily and the stock pads just can't withstand the heat.

Good luck!

 

Andy from cobalt friction best described it to me has "ghost warping".

Due to the incosistencies in the density of the rotors, they heat up and expand unevenly causing them to feel wobbly under braking. I had the same problem, but it seemed to go away with new brake pads. Very.. weird.

 

Definately get decent aftermarket pads and flush the brakes at least once a year. I ran R4S pads and ATE blue stuff and had no brake issues at Gingerman.

 

Get rid of the stock pads. period.

 

If i were you there are a couple of things I would do :-

1. Purchase a master cylinder brace - cusco make one, do a search in the archives there is lots of information about them. You could even make one. Basically fitting one will stop the master cylinder moving under heavy braking resulting in better pedal feel and brake application. I dont have one yet.... but from what i read this should help massively with the problem you are having.

2. Look at removing the brake dust shields. You can refit them if required if you cut them right. It will help air circulate better and cool everything a lot better, I would do this whenever you take the car on the track.

A disc can warp and return to its original shape, I dont think yours will have warped thou, the problems you are describing are probably just down to everything getting so hot.

I did a trackday last weekend and I have removed the brake shields, they ran so much cooler, I did get a bit of a pulsating/warp feel when braking from high speeds after using the brakes a lot but i just laid off them for a while so they could cool.

Other than that do look at getting some performance pads, and replace your fluid youve probably cooked it.

Making any of the changes above will not have any detrimental affect on the road.

 

I did a track day at Gingerman and used Endless MA-11 pads. About 6 laps in I started to get a mean vibration under braking. Then, lafter a 20 min break I went out again and after about 5 or 6 more laps, everything became smooth. ITR calipers and rotors.

Not sure if it was the rotors growing/expanding or if the pads deposited a little something on the rotors.
As everyone else said, change pads and put in new fluid (Valvoline Syntec, ATE Super Blue, Motul 600, etc.)
Anyway, good luck.

 

This is not caused by rotors warping. It is caused by uneven deposits of pad material on the surface of the rotors. You can read more about it here.

There is nothing wrong with the stock pads and fluid. I did a bunch of track events on them, with no problems. You can upgrade when the pads wear out or the fluid has been around for too long, but they have nothing to do with this problem. On the other hand, you ought to have reasonably fresh fluid (flushed within the previous six months) - Honda or other brand - any time you go on the track.

Oh, and IMO you are foolish for attending a track event in which no instruction is given, after only one previous track event. That's a good way to acquire bad habits and get yourself in trouble. Spend the money for an event which gives you classroom sessions and which puts an instructor in your passenger seat.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">where it felt like the front of the car was 'bouncing'.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Typical stock rotor problem.. I just had them new and was forced to brake down from a very high speed violently to avoid a crash while the rotors had been cold... Warped again. Those rotors are crap, most people here think different though.

 

The ghost warping/pad transfer is something that occurs even with performance pads and aftermarket rotors.

Secret to prevent this is to

1) bed the pads in properly when new
2) use one set of pads per rotor ideally. Once pads are done you should again ideally machine the rotors to make sure they are smooth again - but given the cheap cost of rotors for the R - I would just go with new rotors if they are vibrating excessively
3) ALWAYS ALWAYS warm the braking system up gradually before you hammer on them and ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS allow sufficient cool down. Do an extra lap around the paddock if necessary.
4) If you get vibration in the braking system while you're out on the track - scale back to 6/10s and start braking earlier - usually the brake feel will improve and vibration will go down if you do a couple of easy laps

Other tips:

5) NEVER use the handbrake in the paddock when parking. This can seize/warp the rear brakes.

btw For what you are doing - brake ducting is not necessary.

&lt;edit - see comment below&gt;


Modified by Big Phat R at 6:36 PM 5/10/2003

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Most likely: Deposits from the brake pads, like NSXTASY said.

Second bet: Uneven rotor heating causing warping that will appear to be temporary (are you using ABS a lot?).</TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually, it's kinda sorta a combination of these two. It happens because the pad material is not deposited in a uniform layer on the surface of the rotor. But this, alone, is not enough to cause a severe vibration. What then happens is that this causes different parts of the rotor to heat up at different rates, and that causes the severe vibration that you feel. It's explained in the Stoptech white paper.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Big Phat R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Secret to prevent this is to
.
.
.
4) NEVER use the handbrake in the paddock when parking. After the car has sat for a bit (couple of minutes) push the car forward a bit to expose the rotor part that was previously underneath the pad to air. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I disagree with this statement as a way to prevent this from happening. I agree that it's a good idea to never use the parking brake when you come off the track and the brakes are hot. However, doing so can only cause the rear brake rotors to warp, since the parking brake is connected to the rear rotors. In my experience with shudder (and I've had too much of it, thank you), my shudder has always been due to the front brakes, not the rear ones.

 

very informative post!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I disagree with this statement as a way to prevent this from happening. I agree that it's a good idea to never use the parking brake when you come off the track and the brakes are hot. However, doing so can only cause the rear brake rotors to warp, since the parking brake is connected to the rear rotors. In my experience with shudder (and I've had too much of it, thank you), my shudder has always been due to the front brakes, not the rear ones.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sorry i should have qualified my statements - this guy has only been to a couple of track events so I was trying to discuss general brake care issues.

if you leave the handbrake on you can seize the rear brakes as correctly stated.

front brake rotor warpage is due to mainly to 1) improper warm up and cool down and 2) differential expansion due to pad deposits as mentioned previously


Other things that can cause rotor warping (that I can think of)
1) rapid cooling of the rotors - like washing your car/wheels while the rotors are still too hot
2) poor air circulation around the rotor ---&gt; some rims are better than others

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TypeR 01 886 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">very informative post!</TD></TR></TABLE>
Definitely, thanks guys! I think the root cause of my brake issues is the fact that I went a little overboard with the brakes at first without proper warmup, and didn't allow enough cooling period for them afterwards.

I'll probably get some aftermarket pads when the time comes, along with replacing the current brake fluid as a precaution.

 

stock pads suck

 

Thanks nsxtasy for the link!

Thanks George for the link?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This is not caused by rotors warping. It is caused by uneven deposits of pad material on the surface of the rotors. You can read more about it here.

There is nothing wrong with the stock pads and fluid. I did a bunch of track events on them, with no problems. You can upgrade when the pads wear out or the fluid has been around for too long, but they have nothing to do with this problem. On the other hand, you ought to have reasonably fresh fluid (flushed within the previous six months) - Honda or other brand - any time you go on the track.

Oh, and IMO you are foolish for attending a track event in which no instruction is given, after only one previous track event. That's a good way to acquire bad habits and get yourself in trouble. Spend the money for an event which gives you classroom sessions and which puts an instructor in your passenger seat.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly what Ken has described happened to me at BeaveRun this year.

Andie Lin, Mr. Cobalt Friction Technologies, was there and diagnosed my situation as material transfer, described in the whitepaper linked above.

Since you have stock pads, it wasn't from not bedding them properly (or hard enough), it was most likely from 'stabbing' at the brakes which left a film on the rotor, causing a cold spot, etc.

The shudder when I was on the brakes after 5 laps during my first session was VIOLENT. I could barely stop the car, or keep it under control. My instructor as well as about 5 others told me i had warped rotors, which I didn't! The pads were re-bed and I tried to be as smooth as possible when applying the brakes, no 'slamming' or 'stabbing' anylonger, and it worked!