Ok I understand the idea of rev matching and have become quite adept at it in my everyday driving. At first it took some attention and work. But, the other day my wife as a passenger noticed as we hit some nice country roads that I up and down shifted alot smoother and noticed the reving I was doing to match the engine speed for the better transition.

The Q here is what advantages do I recieve besides a better smoother shift, mechanically or even long term? And what does rev matching actually do to help the car IE; match better so the synchros don't have to search ?

OK and the Double clutching, I just saw the new RSX commercial and actually viewed the act of double clutching. I again understand it but don't see a reason to. Not that I won't try hard as Hell like I do with the Rev matching, But, is it neccesary and what are the benefits and disadvantages of doing it and Not?

What is the best verbal description of double clutching in print? Is there an archived post on this subject? I just haven't looked. And is there a description of the Rev matching anywhere?

I think that a topic such as this will benefit ANY new standard car owner regardless of having an R or not. I'm just learning to drive correctly "even though I've driven for 14 years," and happen to have an R.

Thanks from us learning drivers,,,

Oh and I notice that when I downshift from 3rd to 2nd Alot, that either I am slower to have foot reaction and quicker to shift But, I see/feel that I grind the 3rd to 2nd often even with the rev matching. I also notice that sometimes for unknown reasons when at a light that I cannot shift into 1st. Now I'm not stupid and have again been driving for awhile but, even though my R has only 4800 miles on the ODO that I think either the synchros are F*cked up or the clutch should be adjusted.

This has happened since I've had the car. And I only mention it cause I didn't feel it grind as much when I had my PY. It could be that I drive more aggressivly but 3rd to 2nd with the clutch fully depressed and a grind, WTF? Any help is appreciated...

thanks again,

A.

PS no flames please I am really seeking KNOWLEDGE from REAL Drivers and not B.S. from wannabe Punks!

 

If you are driving the car to its absolute limit (on the track) so that the tires are are very close to their limit of adhesion, a downshift without a blip can use up all the remaining traction of the tires and cause the car to spin in the braking zone...


[Modified by Flux, 6:06 PM 7/3/2001]

 

Well I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure I'm not a wannabe punk - unless aspiring to be Beyonce Knowles personal assistant counts as a wannabe.

Anyways, back to the Q.

Advantages to heel/toe downshift: generally to have the car in the proper gear (and part of the powerband) such that acceleration is maximized - usually after braking. You also want the power delivery to the wheels so that you do not upset or overwhelm the balance of the car. It will also maximize your ability to account/correct for slip angle as your car rotates (if done before a corner).

Disadvantages of heel/toe downshift: more wear on the drivetrain? yes probably but mostly the clutch.

Double clutching is still a mystery to me....seems to take a tad longer to do & your chance of a mis-shift is decreased (or maybe increased?). Supposedly you can do it without the clutch....?

 

Good reply Flux thanks,

I do notice that when I rev-match that the steering wheel Does Not jerk in a twisty like when I did Not match. Even at lower speeds like 40mph or so in a really tight turn. I know it has the LSD but without the rev blip I feel a pull to one side. With the rev, it acts smoother in the turn.

Thanks I appreciate it!

And I hope more to come,

A.

 

Yup Big Phat R the Double clutch is my mystery too!!!

I saw it but think it will take too long for a quick power shift like when I find myself carving out corners. I mean I usually choose a gear and it is usually 2nd in the high 5K's or low 6K's and I flow through and stab at the accelerator pedal to get the most out of my tight turns.

Of course this is all on open twisty country roads and the top is usually 55 or 60 mph. So the gearing will certainly change on a track, or will it?

And I'm doing this to learn about my R and enjoy it at the same time. Of course all before I Auto-X , which will be soon...

Thanks again,

A.

 

Man, when u guys gonna teach me how to heel/toe?

 

I saw a thread just last week about this topic. Lemme see if I can find it.

Found it...here ya go!
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=47707




[Modified by eurodeseo, 9:25 PM 7/3/2001]

 

Try this for a start young grasshopper:
http://www.turnfast.com/

Lots of good reading.

Next lesson: Taking the pebble from my hand.....

 

Less wear on the clutch.

I think if you're really rev matching well, there's no need to double clutch. Nothing scientific here, just my O.

The only way you can be grinding is either (a) you don't have the revs matched (or close) or, more likely, (b) you don't have the clutch pressed all the way in when you're going in and out of the gears.

If the clutch pedal is all the way in and you can't move the gear shift **** into gear, then there's something wrong with the car.

If you just can't get the car rolling smoothly, then you're probably not using the progressive nature of the transition range ("sweet spot") of the clutch to its full advantage.

Too often, some people forget that we ALL once were beginners - on the street, on the track, driving a manual trans, etc.

 

a review of one of my previous posts:

You can practice heel-toe throttle application easily. Your car doesn't even have to be moving. Here's how I learned it.
1) First and foremost, you must be in the proper driving position (no gangsta lean in the seats please). You should have a slight bend at the knee sitting in the seat, such that you can press the floor BEHIND the brake pedal firmly and not have your leg fully extended. The seatback is best if it is in nearly the most upright position so that you can reach out and place your wrist on the top of the steering wheel without lifting your shoulder off the seatback. You will find in most cases that in order to have enough room for your legs (especially the right) to move freely that the steering wheel needs to be in the most upright position. Now, for most people the "correct" driving position will feel unnatural, but rest assured once you have become accustomed to it - you will always sit this way.

2) Practice braking with the ball of your right foot. The more of the "edge" of the ball of your foot you can use the better - this will allow you to pivot or roll over your foot to 'blip' the throttle with the outside edge of your foot later once you are trying heel/toe downshifting.

3) While the car is not moving, practice applying the brake with your right foot and simultaneously rolling your ankle over so that the outside edge of your foot applies throttle.

4) On highway offramps, then practice braking with the ball of your foot and blipping the throttle (but not downshifting). Practice this a lot. Some people find it easier to use the heel of the right foot to blip the throttle, others use the outside edge of the foot. It depends on your foot size, leg flexibility and the spacing of the pedals. On the Type R, wider aftermarket pedals are a big help. The stock pedals are too narrow for my liking.

Once you have mastered the above, then try a heel/toe downshift.

Again, on an offramp from 60 mph

1) Say you are in 4th gear, start applying the brake with the ball of your foot. Push the clutch pedal in with your left foot.

2) Watching your line, speed of the car and revs quickly blip the throttle to about 6 or 7 K (do not take your foot off the brake pedal!)

3) Downshift to 3rd and release the clutch.

If you do it properly, you should be able to "rev-match" the car in such a way as to have the clutch smoothly engage without disrupting the balance of the car.

Once you have mastered the single heel/toe downshift, then try a double heel/toe downshift.

In my experience, the hardest thing I had to learn was threshold braking from 100+ mph (by threshold, I mean the absolute maximum braking energy you can generate without having the ABS kick in) and heel/toe downshifting in such a way as to not upset the balance of the car.

The only other thing I can suggest is practice, practice, practice.




[Modified by Big Phat R, 6:28 PM 7/3/2001]

 

you're like a toe/heel jeda master....

Being 6'3" makes it tough/impossible.

Flux - who is going to practice in his garage

 

BigPhatR,

Thanx for the instructions!

Dang it, u mean I can't "dig the scene with a gansta lean" and heel/toe at the same time? BWAHAHAHA!

Allright coo! Beyonce does look helluva' good now that I think about it!

 

EXCELLANT POST and link Eurodeseo,

Thanks again, it illustrates the heel toe method but takes a little digging to get the Double clutching since the guys commenting on it already do it.

Now anyone have any opinions about my 3rd to 2nd notchy grinding shift? Remember only 4800 miles...

A.

 

I'm 6' and found heel/toe hard with the stock seat as the driving position is too high (even worse with JDM seats). this was remedied with a racing seat.

 

Try not to shift in the middle of turns. It can upset the balance of the car - just like lifting the throttle or braking in the middle of turns.

The gearing on the track doesn't change; second gear runs out at an indicated 62 mph in either place.

The principles behind the selection of gears don't change, either. Basically, on the track with the R, you want to keep the car in the lowest gear possible (highest revs without exceeding redline). Only exception is that you wouldn't want to downshift for a turn if you're so close to redline that you're going to upshift immediately after the turn; you'll lose as much from the time shifting as you would gain from the additional acceleration in the lower gear.

 

By far the best example of double clutching that I have ever seen was from an old episode of Best Motoring back from around 1996. Direct camera shot of driver Takashi Ohi's feet double clutching a Porsche 911 GT2. It was invaluable in helping me figure out how to do it. Another excellent shot is in Speedvision coverage of the 24 hours of Spa Francorchamps (sp?) in 1999. A French touring car driver was clearly double clutching at lightening speed if you watched his left knee while he shifted.

All the written explanations that I have seen of double-clutch heel and toe have separated the double clutch into a discrete 3 step process that is inserted where you normally shift/blip during normal downshifting. This is rediculous! It gives the wrong impression that it takes an insanely complex ballet of foot contortions in order to accomplish it. In fact, it is easy to do, but hard to explain.

The best way to think of it is this:

When you are doing a normal heel-toe downshift, you should be blipping the gas NOT when you are already in the next gear down, but actually WHILE you are moving the shift lever. Some people shift down a gear, then blip just before they are about to let up the clutch. This timing is not really compatible with double-clutching, nor is it the fastest way to do things. You have to adjust your timing.

Once you have things timed so that you are blipping during shifter movement, the next step is to add a new movement that is concurrent and synchronized with the throttle blip: At the same time you are blipping, just let your clutch foot up and push it back down with exactly the same timing. It should NOT be a series of discrete movements.

1. Right heel down on the gas while left foot lifts up on the clutch (not all the way).
2. Right heel lets up on the gas while left foot goes back down on the clutch.

So your heel stabs the gas while the clutch foot bumps up once and back down.

If you combine this with the slightest pause in neutral while you move the shifter, you are doing it! If you have the revs correct, you will feel much less resistance when you go into the next gear down, as well as a feeling of accomplishment!

It takes a lot of practice though, and I recommend practicing ALL THE TIME on the street. The same goes with normal heel and toe. The more habitual it is, the less distracted you will be on the track.




[Modified by Gansan, 7:10 PM 7/3/2001]

 

Thanks guys Awesome answers and very educational posts.

I'm sorry I had to put that discalimer on the bottom of the origional but, you know how it can be. Even if it is a serious post and a search for direction.

Thanks NSXtasy, you really seem to have your **** together where driving is concerned. I saw the posts with all you guys at lapping day and you may have seen that I was extremely jealous. I have a great career but, it doesn't afford me much free time especially on the weekends for the races and track events.

I have a buddy in my club who has convinced me "and No, he didn't have to convince too hard," to participate in the local Auto-X scene. I am willing and excited to do so but lack the free weekend time. Soon soon soon I will have some weekend time and enjoy the Hell out of my car. I can't wait!

I will pay close attention tho the clutch engagement while I notice any grind. The one thing that I think May contribute to the grind is my enthusiastic hard-core driving that I may not have punished my old R with. I'm still not sure about the grind and will pay close attention this whole next week. Are there any suggestions as to what mey be wrong if it IS the mechanics of the car?! I just want to have an idea of what may or may not be wrong "me or the car, I'm not picky and not high and mighty."

I just feel that my old PY had a more forgiving transmission, but lacked the grunt that this one has.

Thanks again guys, It's good to see Real people here and that I don't have to fight to get the truth... Sometimes knowledge is hard to come by and harder to comprehend but, practicing it and putting it to use is true satisfaction and education...

A.

 

Thanks. I've been doing it a long time. (100+ events in the past ~15 years)

Some people have lots of free time but not much money for track events. Others have lots of money but not much free time (and the reason they have lots of money is often the same as the reason they don't have free time - work).

The key is to set your priorities. If you REALLY want to do track stuff, set aside however much time you can - even if it's just one or two weekends a year, set them aside and make sure those are YOUR days, not to be messed with under any circumstances.

One of the things I like about road course events is that they seem to maximize the amount of track time. Too often I've been at autocross events where you get five runs through a two minute course, and you have to hang around all day for those ten minutes of track time. Whereas at typical drivers schools you usually get at least 90 minutes of actual high-speed track time in a day, sometimes way more. Nothing against the autocross folks - autocross can be fun - but the big advantage of autocross events is that they're cheap, not the amount of track time you get. And if you can only do one or two events a year, well...

 

Someone might have already said this but the reason you double clutch is because it allows you to rev the car quicker since you are in nuetral. When in neutral the input and output shafts are not connected allowing the engine to rev faster when you blip the throttle. This is what I have come to understand in my reading. You can shift your "R" without the clutch if you know your car's gear ratio's well. I don't recommend it though. I would rather replace the clutch than the syncros.

 

1GreyTeg,

Go to this link to read about how the manual tranny works. It has diagrams also, so that'll help a lot. http://www.howstuffworks.com/transmission.htm

It was probably mentioned before, but double clutching was used before when trannys didn't have synchros. So you don't need to do it these days, but some people still do it to save wear on the synchros. I really like doing it and double clutch all the time. Plus you need to do it if you ever need to shift into 1st gear when going slow(no synchros on 1st). Also, you said that there is a grind when you shift from 3rd to 2nd. Your synchros may be worn. This is where double clutching from 3rd to 2nd will help since it the synchros won't be needed to do all the work.

I didn't have time to read all the above posts so pardon me if I'm repeating stuff,

To double clutch, say from 3rd to 2nd,
1 - clutch in, shift from 3rd to neutral, clutch up
2 - blip gas, clutch in, shifter to 2nd, clutch up
3 - and then back on the gas, zoom zoom

Practice till you get the timing down. Step 2 is done quickly so the revs don't drop too much. But all 3 steps are done pretty much in one motion. You'll see.

I double clutch most of the time when downshifting to 4th or 3rd, and pretty much always when going down to 2nd, and it's a must if you go from 2nd to 1st.

Also a lot of people mention heel-toe downshifting, keep in mind that is different than double clutching. Although you can heel-toe double clutch, but most people don't double clutch when heel-toeing. Usually you just
1- ball of foot on brake
2 - other foot press down clutch, shift down (ie 3rd to 2nd)
3 - blip gas with side of right (or heel) foot , clutch up
4 - zoom, zoom!

Practice, practice, practice! I can double clutch as fast as regular shifting without doing it now. And my heel toeing was pretty good until I swapped the stock brake pads for the Carbotechs. Now I get too much braking and lurch a little when I go to blip the gas. Gotta practice more!


[Modified by red97gsr, 11:21 AM 7/5/2001]

 

Hmm, is this really true? If you are trying to get into 1st gear at 40mph, if the synchros are working properly it should NOT let you into gear. If you revved to 9k it might, but if the revs are too disparate the gears should not engage.

For the same reason, sometimes iit is a little difficult to get into first when stopped. This seems to vary with cars/trannys. Most (all?) japanese cars seem not to have this problem. I know in my Jetta with an older tranny, sometimes you cannot get into 1st from a stop. This is because (?) the splines are not lined up? All you need to do is let up on the clutch for a split second to get the parts spinning again, and you will most likely be able to engage after that.

If you want to feel how these synchros and splines are working, try to get into 1st as you ROLL TO A STOP.

get out of gear

decelerate/brake

press the clutch

hold the gearshift GENTLY towards the 1st gear slot

as you roll to a stop, there is a point where your idle engine speed (700rpm) gets close enough to your potential speed at 700rpm in 1st gear (like 3-10mph) and the lever will pop in. This is the feel of a properly actuated syncrho. Get familiar with that feel...

 

i havent read a post this informative in years.

 

Now if I understood it right, if u are slightly rolling at the light u should not be able to shift into 1st gear. You must be at almost complete stop to do this. Dunno why, maybe just a safety measure!! However I a lot of the times have a hard time shifting into reverse.. .any1?

I don't claim to know about a lot about cars, just how my car works...

-siu lung

 

Your car might be different but that's actually not the case for most cars. You should be able to get into 1st gear most easily at ALMOST stopped. In fact, you should be able to get into gear at that slow deceleration every single time - without fail. Once you are stopped there is a chance you won't be perfectly lined up and you won't be able to get into gear. You might have to let up on the clutch to get things spinning again.

Maybe I am estimating wrong when I say it slides in at 3-10mph, maybe its more like 0.5 mph.

This is the same reason you ITR owners sometimes can't get into reverse. If you ever cant find reverse, all you need to do is put the stick in neutral for a split second and let up on the clutch. This will get the parts (flywheel, gears, intermediate shafts, etc.) spinning again. After this you have a good chance that the reverse gear teeth are in a different, more mate-able spot. Reverse is even more likely to have trouble at a stop because reverse gear has no syncros. Since the 1st gear has a synchro to help you shift, you are able to slot it in at a stop more often than reverse.




[Modified by Tarmac, 10:38 PM 7/4/2001]

 

I find it easier to get it into reverse by shifting to 1st and then going into reverse.