As some of you have heard, I just purchased an S2000. Searching on here as well as http://www.s2ki.com has answered most of my "n00b" questions, but I do have one important one.

Most of you probably have owned and driven FWD Civics/Integras since you're here on Honda-tech. When you're taking a hard aggressive turn, you can "feel" the car begin to slide/understeer before you totally lose it.

In this manner, you are able to take the FWD car basically to the limit of the turn/tires.

My question here, is on an S2000 (or any RWD car for that matter), can you "feel" the start of loss of traction? Say I were to take a turn really hard, will I start to feel the initial "drift" as the back end starts to wander? Or will it suddenly break loose without warning?

This, being my first RWD car, I'm very careful so far and have been taking it EXTREMELY easy. I have old ladies in Corollas tailgating me on turns wanting me to go faster.

NOTE: I know the basics of NOT throttle lifting in the turn, NOT downshifting hard in the turn, etc. I'm talking about a normal RWD hard turn on the gas. I consider myself a pretty damn good driver, but I just need some clarification on this new RWD world I'm coming into.

NOTE AGAIN: Many of you will probably tell me to take a driving course. I actually have, but NOT in a RWD car. Unless money magically appears in my wallet, this probably won't be happening again soon.

Thanks in advance for any advice and tips.

 

maybe a driving school wouldnt be that bad of an idea

 

take driving classes... you do start to feel the back slide out, and it's alot more senistive in turns with the gas pedal... in other words, you cant floor it into a turn like you can with a FWD.... otherwise, you'll fishtail and pull a 180....

the handling is much tighter with a RWD, but alot more difficult to master....

 

You pose a very difficult question because RWD cars can vary in handling characteristics as much as FWD cars. Things such as spring rate, swaybar setup, etc. will affect RWD cars and FWD cars. So my following comments are specific to the S2000, in stock form, because that's all I've ever experienced (no experience driving modified S2000's yet).

The MY 00-01 had a different suspension setup than the 02+. From what I've learned is that the S2000 is not as forgiving as some RWD cars out there. You don't get as much warning before she snap oversteers (I've found myself driving backwards once). In contrast, the Miata is much easier to drive at the limits, and you aren't punished as abruptly for going over the limits. Just keep in mind where the weight of the car is at all times, and try not to upset this balance too much.

 

The most important thing on the S is the tires, if you have the stock S02's then there is a very very fine line before the tires break loose. Anlso they make little to no noise when they do break and that can cause some disconserning feelings.

I am not going to get into the whole how to drive the car debate but take a driving school it's worth every penny.

Also remeber that the S2000 does not like bumpy roads, if you acome out of a corner with the suspension loaded and hit anything other then smooth road you are going to spin or have some interesting slide spin going on. You can experiance this by simply driving over some uneven pavment and get the feeling then multiply that by ~400%

 

the s2k is very tricky, by the time you feel the tires are breaking loose in teh rear...its usually too late. also make sure not to completely let go off the gas if you're losing control..this only makes things worst. use the throttle to guide yourself out of danger.

you need to slowly and gradually build up the speeds when you take corners, so you have a proper feel of how the car reacts. especially if this is your first RWD car(applies to me too) then you need to really take it easy in the beginning. the s2k is not noob friendly, and will bite if you do something wrong.

 

The S2000 will be my first RWD car(except my old 84 mustang, that I rolled)I will be taking driving classes before pushing my new baby to her limits.

 

Sham00,

I have heard that the '02's and the latest "st00ks" have softer rear springs than the '00-'01 models in order to remedy the earlier models snap oversteer. I have gone around sharp corners fairly fast, the tail came out and as soon as I let off the throttle the car immediately straightened up. Another friends spun his '02 on an offramp after he got the tail out and stabbed the accelerator. Luckily he didn't hit anything.

Be careful, I find it's better to enter a corner sat a safe speed and then gradually step on the throttle thru the corner. I'm going very slowing in finding the limit of my S.

 

haha, i see that i'm not the only one whos a noob to the RWD thing. I love FWD integ but im new to the RWD s2k. I was actually thinking about going to a big parking lot this summer and force the rear to break loose and test the limits, just so the feeling dont catch me off guard when i'm driving on the street.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Spooky Stooky &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
take driving classes... you do start to feel the back slide out, and it's alot more senistive in turns with the gas pedal... in other words, you cant floor it into a turn like you can with a FWD.... otherwise, you'll fishtail and pull a 180....

the handling is much tighter with a RWD, but alot more difficult to master....

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm sure you've had this experience.

You can't "floor" FWD cars through a turn. They'll push and You're not gonna hit the apex or be able to rotate the car enough.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by c steve &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">



It's all physics. Once you understand the physics involved you can better control any car, regardless of which wheels are driven.</TD></TR></TABLE>

this is probably the only thing steve c and i agree on.

 

I just got an S2000 and I have the same concerns. I've already driven it sideways (inadvertently) once, and I don't want to do it again some place where its not convenient.

I'll probably take it to an auto cross, but I'm not sure if the slow speeds will let me feel what I want to feel. I'm sure I'll do the whole wet-parking-lot thing, too, but again that's not 100% what I'm looking for....plus I'm sure the cops won't care too much for my explanation, no matter how logical it is. If they hear tires squealing and any engine over 4500 rpm, they immediately assume you're a Menace II Society.

So yeah, I want to take a driving school...but how does that work? Do I straight up have to fly across the country and throw down $3k? Is there no cheaper alternative? Is there no local alternative?

Do I have to drift into a tree in order to learn how not to?

 

read a book on driving even, you can search plenty of them on amazon. it's pretty similar to a motorcycle, at least in the terms of how i attack corners and set myself up for them.

you want to get all of your braking done in the straightest line possible. after that, you want to hold the throttle very smoothly and lightly while you apex the turn. upon exiting you want to slowly apply the gas until you can full throttle onto the straight. the key with the throttle in the turn is to be as smooth as possible to not upset the suspension - jerky with the throttle, hitting the brakes or a bad downshift are all things that are a no no when entering or being in a turn.

if you lose it in a turn and the rear end comes out, dont let off the gas and don't step on the brakes - this will just make your situation worse (it accelerates what's already happening). you should try to steer into the slide and use as much as gas as possible to gain control of the cars steering so you can get back on track. the old "look where you want to go" saying and stepping on the gas does wonders, it should be your first instinct, not thought. sometimes a thought takes too long.

other advanced techniques to manipulate the way the car handles car should come natural after you know the correct concept and you've experienced enough driving.

the basic concept is the later you brake, and the earlier you gas, the faster you go. of course maintaining traction is the obvious key here in determining these limits. a lot of things will change the way your s2000 handles, but the biggest handling factor of them all besides your skill, is what tires you will be using.


why dont you watch these guys drive.. the first one is the most extreme video i could find of aggressively driving rwd - you can see what i was talking about when you see him lose his rear end and you can see his steering & throttle input, also watch his footwork and you can see how to heel-toe brake in order to downshift while you brake at the same time. this is an ultimate example of control.

you can see the basic idea of how to drive a rwd car more so in the second video - listen to the throttle inputs of course:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8UnBre4X8Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q630Qx_S4ew

 

Thanks for advice!

That's a crazy video, the first one. You're right, half the time he's turning the steering wheel the wrong way!

I have read alot on the subject already, but I was very surprised when that time I was driving sideways, I actually managed to get her going straight again (after a little fishtailing). Maybe I have some of the instinct already...no doubt from all those hours spent playing Gran Turismo.

Speaking of which, that's not a bad idea....maybe it's time to dust off the 'ol Playstation 2!

 

On an FWD, understeer is controlled by how soft you hit the brake pedal. On your new RWD, oversteer is controlled by how hard you hit the gas pedal. Get it? Try it.

 

DUDE just watch tokyo drift like every one else and learn how to drift ....oops up that doesnt help ... just mess around in an empty lot with nothing to mess your new sweet *** car on

 

I can give you the seven page version i call "DA COMPLETE SEREEZ" or i can just tell you the condensed version:

1.) Take off any lips, side strakes, or other underbody stuff you may have. Go to a track with a lot of runoff. This will allow you to get a feel for your limits, and if you hit something, it will be grass or a pea gravel pit. Thats better than a retention wall on the road.

2.) Once you get good, you will welcome the "off throttle steer" and "on throttle steer" and "braking steer". You can drive your car a little beyond its limits if you perfect this.

3.) The S2000 has a bad reputation (especially the AP1) for snap oversteer. I guess this must be a problem for FWD guys. I came from a SR20 S13. So the term "snap oversteer" is all relative to where you came from. There's really no such thing as "snap oversteer" for me. I knew where the car was going to oversteer the first time i drove it. I took it to the track 4 days after buying it and kicked some serious EVO and corvette ***. Even with the pirelli all season garbage that the stealership put on my rear wheels. You just kinda make the best of what you have, when you can drive well, i guess .

4.) Since you said you were in a driving school, you should know how to kinda "feel" what the car is doing. You'll develop some fundemental physics using your *** as you go along with this car. Just approach the limits with caution..but do approach them (on a track) and see how far the car will let you push it. Kinda like getting to know a girl. You kinda push the limits at first, then find a good setting. Then you step over the line when she's not expecting it . lol...man how do i still have a GF?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by disordeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I'm sure you've had this experience.

You can't "floor" FWD cars through a turn. They'll push and You're not gonna hit the apex or be able to rotate the car enough.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I disagree. You can floor a FWD thru a corner. If it has a B16 lol. I used to poise my hatchbox at just the right angle and pitch and floor it RIGHT before the apex. I put the beat down on a lot of WAY faster cars with WAY more suspension parts (which apparently, doesnt mean they were tuned correctly, though)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B serious &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I disagree. You can floor a FWD thru a corner. If it has a B16 lol. I used to poise my hatchbox at just the right angle and pitch and floor it RIGHT before the apex. I put the beat down on a lot of WAY faster cars with WAY more suspension parts (which apparently, doesnt mean they were tuned correctly, though)</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yep, light torqueless cars work the best. Apex early and find the straightest way out and BANG!