Suspension & Brakes Theory, alignment, spring rates....

Brake proportioning issues

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Old Aug 11, 2018 | 12:38 PM
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Default Brake proportioning issues

I have an incomplete setup right now which might be the cause.

Wilwood 4 piston front kit for my 2000 DX hatchback and stock drums rear. The pedal would go to the floor before finally working so I got an ITR brake master cylinder and everything felt great and tight again. After 4 autocrosses and a track day now I have found an issue. The rears are locking up way before the fronts like not even close. Autocross not a big deal losing some time in braking and the rear stepping out is nice but I’d like to get this balanced correctly. If I get the Wilwood rear kit/ Civic si, integra rear disk brakes it’s just going to make the issue worse right? Or am I thinking about this wrong and adding rear disks will solve the issue?

I know there is a debate about only the 00’ si having a 40/40 prop valve where as the rest are 40/30. I just feel adding rear disks is going to make it even worse or is there something touchy about drums I don’t know?
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Old Aug 13, 2018 | 05:17 PM
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Default Re: Brake proportioning issues

Anyone?
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Old Aug 14, 2018 | 03:58 AM
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2x0
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Default Re: Brake proportioning issues

Isn't this the problem inherent with drum brakes? They suck in any performance application, and don't give the driver much "metering" ability when pushing them to the limit. Have you tried adjusting them?

I would say you need to go all discs if doing autocross. Also proportioning will be tricky anyway when braking hard because there is very little weight on the rear tires.
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Old Aug 14, 2018 | 11:35 AM
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Default Re: Brake proportioning issues

Maybe the new master cylinder is pushing too much to the rear drums now? I have no idea about the prop valve though.
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Old Aug 14, 2018 | 12:02 PM
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Default Re: Brake proportioning issues

Originally Posted by .Grimace
I have an incomplete setup right now which might be the cause.

Wilwood 4 piston front kit for my 2000 DX hatchback and stock drums rear. The pedal would go to the floor before finally working so I got an ITR brake master cylinder and everything felt great and tight again. After 4 autocrosses and a track day now I have found an issue. The rears are locking up way before the fronts like not even close. Autocross not a big deal losing some time in braking and the rear stepping out is nice but I’d like to get this balanced correctly. If I get the Wilwood rear kit/ Civic si, integra rear disk brakes it’s just going to make the issue worse right? Or am I thinking about this wrong and adding rear disks will solve the issue?

I know there is a debate about only the 00’ si having a 40/40 prop valve where as the rest are 40/30. I just feel adding rear disks is going to make it even worse or is there something touchy about drums I don’t know?

Eesh, Locking rears is not a safe or fast method for rotating the car. You can drive fast in a car with too much front bias, but one with too much rear bias is just plain dangerous.

For 96-00, the prop valve is the same part number for the Si and for the models with 9.5" fronts. The EX is the oddball of the bunch with its own prop valve. So, you already have the "correct" valve on there for a rear disc conversion. I'd start with the rear conversion and go from there. Without knowing anything about the complete rest of your setup it's hard to say what your caliper swap has done to the bias. What calipers did you change to? What is the piston area compared to your stock calipers? Did you change rotor size too? It's a pretty safe bet you went bigger, but there are teeny little setups for dedicated Auto-X setups that fit under 13" wheels... It's highly likely that you are pushing much more piston in the front brakes than you were before, building less pressure for a given amount of pedal travel... Food for thought.

Changing to the aforementioned EX prop valve may be a valid experiment too.

Originally Posted by Ericjergs
Maybe the new master cylinder is pushing too much to the rear drums now? I have no idea about the prop valve though.
Changing the master cylinder size does not change the bias.
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Old Aug 14, 2018 | 01:52 PM
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Default Re: Brake proportioning issues

Originally Posted by spAdam

Changing the master cylinder size does not change the bias.
Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't sure if the larger bored Master Cylinders effected bias at all.
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Old Aug 14, 2018 | 07:06 PM
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Default Re: Brake proportioning issues

I don’t only autocross this car I also track it so this isn’t an autocross specific setup. Whole reason I’m worried is because it’s obviously slower and unsafe to have the rear coming around like this.

Going to install rear disks and hope it solves the issue unless anyone has first hand experience?
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Old Aug 22, 2018 | 08:40 AM
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Default Re: Brake proportioning issues

Originally Posted by spAdam
What calipers did you change to? What is the piston area compared to your stock calipers? Did you change rotor size too? It's a pretty safe bet you went bigger, but there are teeny little setups for dedicated Auto-X setups that fit under 13" wheels... It's highly likely that you are pushing much more piston in the front brakes than you were before, building less pressure for a given amount of pedal travel... Food for thought..
I'd find the answers to spAdam's questions before you go through the expense of doing a rear disk conversion. Drum brakes have some unusual behaviors but they don't inherently lock up more easily than disk brakes. In fact they are generally harder to lock than disks, which is why rear drum cars come with brake prop valves with more rear bias (exactly as you originally stated).

If it turns out that you aren't building enough pedal pressure up front due to larger caliper piston area, you may have to go to an aftermarket brake proportioning valve to get the brake bias right. I had to do exactly this to keep the rears from locking in my car. I took out the stock proportioning valve, added tees for the brake lines, and installed a Wilwood pressure-reducing type brake proportioning valve inline with the rear brakes. I have it set 1/2 turn below maximum reduction (brake bias almost fully forward), which lets me lock the fronts just before the rears do under hard braking.

Last edited by boxedfox; Aug 22, 2018 at 05:06 PM. Reason: So many typos.
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