Hi,

Would it make any noticeable different on the cars handling if you used both types of bushings on the car. For example poly on lower control arms but rubber for upper arms?

Also, the BIG debate between the two on which is better, I'am I right in saying it basically comes down to preference. (Don't know which to choose)

One thing that concerns me is the photo below of how the poly bush can deform/bind (i know this is an engine mount and not suspension but could the same thing happen with susp. bushings)?
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z55/yuhatn4/203.jpg

The idea that the poly dosent have an outer sleeve/shell makes you want to think it will tend to deform/go out of shape from the inner sleeve?


Anybody's experience with these for years would be much appreciated!

Thanks guys

 

Poly is better suited to upper control arms (if you really want to use poly). Rubber is better suited to load bearing parts like LCA's.

If poly were actually a better material to use...then OEM's would use it on their factory "prepped" cars. ITR's, NSX's, and S2000's came with reinforced rubber bushings. Not poly.

It is generally true that poly bushings will deform and fail much faster than rubber. There are some exceptions. But the cost of those exceptions is reflective of that.

 

Thanks that has answered some of my questions/concerns!

But since there is no outer sleeve on poly bushings what stops them from turning inside the LCA?
Also,
how do they support thrust loads (what supports them from side to side without no outer sleeve)

Hardrace bushings for the front lower control arms might be the better choice then??


Thanks

 

Some poly bushings do have outer sleeves (Whiteline, and a couple other places). But the price reflects the design.

The inner sleeve rotates in the bushing on a poly bushing. The bushing does not twist like a rubber one does. They are "floating" bushings.

That's why rubber bushings need to be clocked...and poly bushings typically do not.

As far as how poly bushings (without outer sleeves) handle thrust loads...the bushing has a lip on it. The lip presses against the parts it is bolted in between. The installed length of bushing is slightly longer than the inner sleeve that it rides on. So you lightly squish everything together when you bolt it.

 

you still want to clock poly bushings.

control arms dont rotate in a single axis (except front upper inside bushings). youll get more binding if you tighten a poly bushing at an off angle. its best to tighten even poly bushings at ride height.

 

Thanks,

so there is no right or wrong answer here for front lower control arms anyway...just down to preference? Just trying to understand which I should choose!!

One thing I did notice the poly is cheaper than hardrace. Any of you guys had experience of using hardrace?

Would it neg. affect/make any difference with the handling if you used poly on the rear lower control arms and rubber on the front for example?

 

no ones saying you cant mix it up. even on the same arm. why are you so scared of trying?

its not a preference. poly bushings are not better on a honda. the multi degree of rotation makes poly not suitable and will bind, and have less life. they end up wearing out the material and increasing slop, and eventually break up and fail.

 

From experience, I would recommend rubber in all positions except UCA pivots and rear toe links.

For the rear compliance bushing (trailing arm bushing), rubber or spherical is really the only good option.

 

Ok, I have taken all what has been said above onboard, but I've talked to people that have used poly on their daily for years (7+) an no issues with wear/deforming...as long as they're greased.....how do you explain this?

How is it that some still say their not the best to use/not better than hardrace? I mean plenty of peps use poly and feedback with no issues??

Tyson, what have you used/recommend (hardrace or poly).


Thanks guys!

 

7+ years of use probably depends on where they're being used...and for what type of use.

On a shock-to-LCA position on a daily driven car with average mile/year use? Probably not.

On a UCA pivot? Sure, thats feasible.

Greasing will help the wear from sliding/rubbing. But doesnt do much for axial loading wear.

What do you feel will be the advantages of using poly in your application? What do you want the bushing...or the car....to do?

 

i am not advocating hard race either btw. i know nothing of them or care for them.

i only recommend OEM parts and bushings. i have replaced many control arms with oem parts.

we also used sphericals on the race car i used to drive with my codriver. theyre a different type of bushing that you need to think out how to use correctly, but over all better suited for track.

i have nearly a full set of mugen hard bushings, but saving that for whatever.

i also have a set of ES poly black bushings. never installed that, just got them because theyre cheap and i was thinking of a place or two to use them. along with some delrin shock bushings i have yet to use.

lots of ppl certainly think poly is better, or good. good for them.

theres also a lot of ppl who come back wondering why their poly bushings are cracked and in pieces or obliterated after time. its no wonder when you observe the facts that poly binds, deforms, wears, etc.

 

This one was a daily (prob 80 miles a day) and the occasional track day with poly for EVERY bushing.

Car will probably be around 80% road & 20% track when its completed.

I would buy OEM but Honda (UK) only sell the whole arm and not separate bushings (for the front anyway, I have OEM RTA bushings).




............I have made my decision, I will go with hardrace.
Any tips on pressing them in, I was thinking just heat them up and see how well they go then or freeze the bushings to help them shrink (would freezing break up the rubber, na)??

Thanks for the advice and help B serious & Tyson I have learnt a lot. Its my 1st build so still learning

 

the best thing about OEM.... you dont HAVE TO press bushings in.

 

Buying all new OEM arms is very expensive.

Hardrace seems to have a decent reputation, and the fact that they're rubber should make them durable if they are installed properly and paired with a suspension that's stiffer than stock. The only bushing I'd question is the rear trailing arm bushing. A harder material would tend to tear faster (especially) there.

To install them, you should buy a 20 ton or larger press...and use sockets or old bushing sleeves to press them in.

I have never needed to freeze bushings or add heat to the arms. Use silicone lube on the bore to make it easier, if anything.

It will be the worst project you have ever taken on in your life lol.

 

I've always thought the whole debate between poly versus rubber to be silly. I've used rubber bushings, and I've used poly bushings. I continue to run polyurethane bushing from Energy Suspension because I have never had an issue with them. Yes yes even the RTA bushing that people say binds... well I removed my coilovers and ran the whole assembly through the motions. The poly bushing flexes just as rubber would and I found no binding issues even past the extremes up and down further than the arm could go with a strut attached.

The ES bushings on my car are 6 years old with just over 40,000 miles on them and they show no indication of deforming, cracks, or wear. The only poly bushing I have dealt with that fails are Junk2's. They crack, fall apart, and wear very fast making slop in a short time. On top of that their replacements are pricey and don't even fit well without modifying. Basically Energy Suspension all of the things.

 

I run prothane bushings everywhere in my cars. I also drill and tap every bushing location for grease fittings so I can keep them lubed simply via a grease gun, no disassembly required, ever. going on 7 years now in my race car (which often is my DD as well when the jeep acts up). uca bushings are mint. lca to chassis bushings are still mint. the lca to shock however is quite deformed at all locations.

my opinion of it all is:
-poly is obviously stiffer and will mildly increase handling by allowing less flex, which also makes conditions a bit more predictable. Because it's stiffer it will often ride a little rougher though, especially if used for the lca to shock. If the bushings dry out and are not re-greased when necessary, they WILL wear and develop slop. If kept greased at all times, they can last a very long time, as long as they are not under high loads for lengthy periods of time. poly reduces wheelhop, so if thats an issue, poly is one possible solution. price is quite nice.

-rubber (when tightened at ride height) will last way longer than poly. rubber rides much softer and way more comfortably than poly. rubber does not wear or deform, and never needs to be greased. rubber is zero maintenance.

personally, I recommend: Poly for UCA, and LCA to chassis. Rubber for LCA to shock