I was hoping someone could help me here...I have a freshly built 83mm 9:1 GSR that I need to start up before tuning to (semi) seat the rings, set timing, check for leaks, etc. I have Neptune RTP, and although the turbo is installed, I will be starting it with stock injectors and stock MAP to keep it safe, and it will see no load therefore no boost...as I said above, merely to get the car ready for tuning. I am running a P28 (Edelbrock IM, so no need for IAB control), so can I just run the P72 base map in Neptune, as it is? Would it be SAFE for the first startup, no worries of over fueling and washing out the rings? If it is sufficient, would all that needed to be modified in the tune be disabling the knock, ELD and IABs, and nothing else? Can somebody please help me and fill me in on any possible issues that I may be overlooking? Thanks in advance!

 

Not long ago there was a guy trying to start his H22 or H23, look at the other threads in this sub-forum and you should see the one I'm talking about. The information we gave that guy pretty much pertains to you verbatim. Yes you should be fine using a stock p72 map. Disable the sensors that you listed correct. I would install the new injectors now and make sure they don't have any problems likelo flow. It would be good to check all that stuff out while you are doing your initial testing. But that is in my opinion. Do you have a wideband o2 sensor installed in the car? If so it would be much easier, use the overall fuel multiplier to get your cranking fuel and idle fuel somewhat normal. Hopefully you have that wideband sensor. If you are above 11 and under 17 you won't be doing any damage to your motor. Idle timing should be about 16 17. A stock GSR basemap should be just fine there too don't even bother adjusting that.

You should set your base ignition timing by using Neptune's lock ignition feature.

 

Thanks so much for the input! I am searching for the thread that you mentioned right now.

I understand what you say about testing the 1000cc injectors, but they were used on my previous setup so they are known to have no issues, and the same with the stock 240cc that I plan to start the car with (I'm sure you can probably understand where I feel it is safer to start with stock injectors vs. large-cc). I DO have a wideband installed (PLX M300 with fresh sensor) at the moment, so monitoring AFRs will not be a problem.

Now, I am somewhat new to all this but have a basic understanding...I assume you mean I would use the overall fuel multiplier to adjust cranking and idle fuel tables IF i were to start with the 1000cc, correct? I assume if I stick with the stock injectors, the stock P72 maps should be close enough for an initial and safe start-up? And you are saying during this initial startup that over 11 and under 17 will be a safe area to seat the rings and get done what I need to? This would, again, be at idle and without any load on the motor.

I planned on timing it at the stock 16 base timing using the "ignition lock" feature, as well.

 

You may need to adjust fuel, even for stock injectors.

Between 11 and 17 is safe not to be washing or detonating. Aim for 14.7~15 though.

Don't be afraid of load. Load is needed to seat rings IMO.

I get right to driving and tuning after a warm up and leak check. No babying.

 

I figured the stock injectors on the P72 map would definitely be alright, but I guess I was wrong. Is getting the fueling to a safe level easy enough? Is that something I can get a quick rundown on how to watch for and adjust?

As I said, I am not tuning the car myself, I just need to get it running and tested before getting it to a tuner. It will see no load for that reason (but I definitely do agree with you saying load seats rings). I would absolutely love to teach myself / learn to tune, but my build is too much for a novice, and I dare not risk any disaster.

I just want to get it started without risk of any damage, and I am already learning the very basics of tuning even just trying to accomplish this, so hopefully it is a stepping stone to doing some of my own tuning one day!

I appreciate your help so far, thanks so much and my knowledge is already growing.

 

Neptune is an aftermarket program however. Just because you load a stock map, does not mean it's stock code entirely. There's values that are just plain wrong, like idle at 900rpm by default, when factory would be set at 750rpm.

The overall fuel multiplier is all you should need to tweak. Between 1 and 20 may be necessary. Probably much closer to 1. Maybe zero, but you should be mindful and pay attention to afr.

 

From research, I understand how the aftermarket programs work and how they are coded, and definitely do understand the fact that a base map loaded in Neptune RTP will NOT run exactly like it did in a stock ECU. I figured it might be close enough, and probably will, but I have been reading more and more and do understand (mostly in part to you enlightening me to this fact) that there may be minor tweaks needed regardless, even with most of the OEM components in place. I especially understand that the fueling will also likely need a little bump right off the bat due to being an 83mm bore with a different IM/TB/etc.

Now, when you speak of the "overall fuel multiplier," you are referring to the "Overall Fuel Trim" under Injector Calibration in Parameters, correct? This is a PERCENTAGE that can only be a whole number that modifies both (high /low cam) fuel maps by the percentage entered, correct? It does not show a visible change to the maps from what I see. I see it can also be quickly and easily brought up with the hot key. The same function could be attained by highlighting the fuel maps and increasing areas on the map (or the entire map) by the same percentage as well, and that would alter the fuel tables directly vs. them staying as is and the multiplier taking it from there. Please let me know if I got this down or not.

So my plan is as follows...please let me know if this is correct:

-Load P72 base code.
-Disable ELD, knock and IABs.
-Select OEM MAP and OEM injectors with ZERO overall trim (for now).
-Set 16 degrees base timing in "Preferences" AND "Parameters."
-Set the correct TPS voltage in "Preferences," as well as setup the WB02 for logging.
-Upload base code to demon, turn key, make sure MIL goes off / pump primes before attempting to start.
-Click "Start Logging" so it is ready to go when started, and also tick "Live Update" so changes are instantaneous...also have "Data" and "Gauges" open to monitor.
-Start the car, instantly keeping an eye on AFRs - as long as it is between 11 and 17 (perhaps set a warning in "Gauges" to help here?), let the car warm up fully until it hits idle speed. If it is too far outside of this realm, or would prefer it closer to 14.7 before idle, adjust overall fuel trim one point at a time (raise number to richen, lower it to lean it out) while watching AFRs until target is hit.
-If no adjustments made until car is at idle speed, then adjust overall trim when at idle for a target AFR of 14.7.
-Use ignition lock to set base timing.
-Change oil, and off to the tuner!

Again, I immensely appreciate the help!!! I have even been researching how to tune in general, and might just give it a try as am becoming very interested. I hope I nailed this first step, though!!!

 

Just a side note, I would suggest having a friend in the driver seat so you can monitor the lap top the whole time and make any adjustments based on what you are seeing. I think it is easier than pulling over and making changes.

I would highly suggest a dyno tune and then street tuning your partial throttle yourself while keeping a 'back up' copy of the dyno tune. WOT tuning does leave some room for improvement at partial throttle and that is really the only 'street' tuning I think you should be doing. WOT tuning on the street can be dangerous.

 

I will not be tuning it...(at least not at first). This post is merely to learn the basics of creating a safe start-up scenario for a freshly built motor.

 

Hell yea I am in the same boat as Mike nice but I think while I have everything out and out getting.machined I will drop a stock d16 with my intake manifold and tb from my turbo setup and do all this so my new build isn't at risk .... I plan on trying to do a mpg build after my turbo d build so I can have a car for road trips so the stock d16 will b dropped in a shell just here to learn

 

Any input from anyone knowledgeable on my second to last post (detailing my planned steps)?

 

Yes. You missed stuff, just at a glance. On options, everything but ignition adjustments should be disabled.

I suggest asking your tuner to send you their take on a basemap. It should only take them 5-10 mins. Thats if you're still not confident.

 

The ECU DOES have an AP sensor, and I DO have a heated O2, so I assumed those would be enabled.

I am pretty confident, just wanted to make sure my "checklist" about was sound.

 

You could leave AP enabled, but there would be less variables if you had it disabled. Things work fine with it disabled.

I would leave the O2 disabled entirely. I would run open loop, disable closed loop. When you're fuel is way off, the ecu won't react properly and just make it worse. There's probably more.

But if you're just looking for someone to tell you all the buttons to press, you should just have your tuner make you a basemap, then you can open the basemap yourself and see what buttons he wants pushed. It might make his job easier once your arrive at the dyno anyway!

You can still tweak overall fuel to make it run better... But this way, you have much better luck

 

Thanks for the input!