Is there a factory rear sway bar from any Hondas or Acuras that I might be able to find at a junkyard that would fit my Accord? I'm saving my money for an engine build/swap so I don't want to blow a ton of money on nice coilovers quite yet, but I've been told that rear swaybars can really improve the handling/understeer of FWD cars.

While I'm at the junkyard, is it worthwhile to upgrade my rear drum brakes to discs from an EX? This car will eventually be taken to the track so I'll be using hybrid race pads up front... Would the drums be a weak link in this setup or would it only make sense to upgrade the rear drums to discs if I get bigger/slotted discs and better calipers up front? I'm more concerned about heat/fade than stopping distance

 

You can't use the OEM swaybar as those Accords are missing some of the threaded nuts that are welded to the subframe. The EX models came with a rear swaybar.

You'll need to go aftermarket and get one that doesn't bolt to factory locations - like the Progress.

 

about the brakes, the stock setup should be more than enough to stop your car. if its a track car add ebc pads up front for your driving style.
if your wanting to put on bigger calipers then I would suggest upgrading your mc. then get a 40/40 prop valve. I don't know how hard your going to push your car but I personally only experienced heat fade in my f22 swapped civic with crap pads.
when I just put ceramic pads on it helped out tremendously. I was running drum in the rear.
I have also swapped drums to disk on this cd5 chassis. pita in my opinion. the ebrake cable being most of it. again if you upgrade to disc and want bigger calipers up front, get a 15/16 or 1in brake mc to compliment.

 

15/16" master is standard on LX's. 1" master would decrease pedal feel and is standard on ABS/EX models. I have a progress bar on my LX and it's a great unit, although I did have some clearance issues with the rear lower control or toe arms until I was lowered. It's an easy install.

IMO, the stock rear drums are fine. It IS worth upgrading the front to a rotor over hub setup to save on headaches and ease rotor changes, although converting to 5 lug in the front can be accomplished with little effort using the whole knuckle assembly from a 6th gen v6 if you find the right ones, stamped S5 on the disc dust cover. 1st gen odyssey parts can be used as well and directionally on, no fuss. There's a writeup on cb7tuner and converting the rear to 5 lug is fairly easy as well. If you don't want to deal with the headache of converting to rear disc, 1st gen CRV drums are what you want for 5 lug as they're direct bolt on. Good pads and fluids should be more than adequate up front.

 

well I would guess it would depend on if he has abs or not. in my experience with my 97 accord se non abs it had the smallest brake mc. with the 5 lug swap and bigger brake setup the pedal felt a little spongy probably because of more fluid having to be displaced when I pushed in the pedal. hence why I suggested IF he were to go with bigger calipers he should upgrade brake mc as well. of course if he doesn't already have larger mc.

 

Actually, I think I may be wrong about a larger master making the pedal softer. I always screw up hydraulic sizing. I think I'm right in thinking it'll reduce effort, but the smaller piston may just not move enough fluid.

 

your right. just depends on the setup. smaller master cylinder with bigger calipers means the mc cant really cant displace enough fluid to operate the calipers optimally resulting in a softer and farther traveling pedal. now put a larger mc in a system with smaller calipers and the pedal will seem harder because you wont have to move as much fluid.

in my case when I put the 5lug swap on my car that used bigger calipers and kept the stock mc, my pedal traveled a bit farther than before because it had more space to fill now. if that makes sense. lol

 

Thanks for the responses. I'm not planning on upgrading the front rotors/calipers at least until I get my engine swap and suspension sorted out, I just wanted to know if upgrading to rear discs would give me an improvement while I ran high performance pads on my stock front disc setup. It seems like the consensus is that the rear drums are sufficient for now.

What's a good high performance pad (brand) that will still work well when cold? Ideally I want something I can use on the streets as well as the track. Also is regular brake fluid inadequate at high temps and if so what performance fluid is acceptable for use in a Honda?

 

Hawk HP+'s are kind of the go to for intro to decent pads. You really need dot5 fluid that can sustain higher heat, like a brembo or motul fluid. Tirerack carries what you're looking for. By far, the biggest benefit will be tires, they'll transform your car. If you can get a set of 16's or larger, the go to for entry good performance tires are probably the continental DW. Probably one of the best in wet conditions, comfortable enough for daily duties, and very respectable dry grip. Find yourself a local SCCA chapter and run an autocross. You'll learn so much about your car it'll stun you, and the people are really friendly. I really suggest doing it in your current state of tune, there's nothing wrong with ragging out a really unprepared car to get a feel for what it's capable of and what improvements will make the biggest impact. I did the same thing when I bought my car, although, I have autocrossed a lot of different cars over the past 10 years.

 

Really? Learn something new everyday.
MCs cannot be 'upgraded'.
One would only change MC size if the brake system requires different pressure/volume.
Proper caliper upgrades rarely require MC changes. If a larger bore MC is needed to compensate for a larger caliper up front then the rear brakes also need to be addressed for correct bias. Otherwise a car with incorrect bias, even if it has uber brakes calipers up front, will take longer to slow/stop than stock.

Brake systems are a system and must be considered as a whole before changes are done.
Again, NO.

If you need more braking power upgrade to the larger 280mm front rotors found on the Wagon/V6 models and the Wagon/V6 calipers/caliper cages to clear the larger rotors. Caliper piston sizes did not change on the front of these vehicles. Even the Odyssey used the same size front calipers as the Coupe/Sedan and the exact same calipers as the Wagon/V6.

Rear disc cars came with a 1" bore MC
Rear drum cars came with a 15/16" MC

As for pressure/volume. If the system remains the same and a larger bore MC is used the pedal will be short and hard with less output pressure. A smaller bore MC will make the pedal longer and softer with more output pressure.
Rear drums are fine for braking, this is not a problem.
However, you cannot easily modulate drums due to the self energizing effect of the shoes when they contact the drums. It is much easier to lockup drums. In a race scenario where you are constantly making minute changes upgrading to rear discs aids in more finite control of stopping.

With that said, there are plenty of Civics in spec classes still running drums. But if you ever watch some of these races when they get on the brakes ,especially in the corners, the rear wheels tend to come off the ground. So it really doesn't matter what the rear brakes are as they are not doing anything if the wheel is no longer in contact with the ground.
Hawks are good, stick with HPS or Black for events. I know some guys who think HPS are a waste and just go to Blacks for street use. You will have to find your preference.

I am also a fanboi of Centric(parent company of Stop-Tech) Posi-Quiet line. Used their ceramics on a few street cars, easy bed-in process. Have heated them up a few times and they maintained bite, also have very good cold grip. Very linear throughout the temp range no fade detected. Feed back from the pedal is nice. Price from RockAuto is even better. ~$30

Nissin pads on the '97 EX Sedan(Nissin calipers). I'm surprised these are factory pads, they have nice linear grip have never encountered fade(never driven the car hard either though) but the dusting is atrocious. Went for a spirited drive after a wash and the front wheels were dirty after my drive. Not sure how those could have been factory approved. Even with normal driving the dusting is bad. Pedal feedback is meh at best. Modulation sucks. Grip when cold is good.

In a pinch I installed Brake Best pads on the '95 EX Coupe. Initially they felt OK, but if you do not re-bed them in every so often the grip goes to hell. Had to really induce some heat into the pads before the full potential of the pads would show(which was fun). But IMO I think they are a bit of rotor eaters, would not go this route again. Modulation is pretty good though. Fade resistance is good as well. They need some heat to get working in the morning.

I am/was a fanboi of Castrol GT LMA(dot 3/4) fluid. It has been superseded by Castrol Synthetic DOT4. Which now I believe is just called 'Brake Fluid Dot 4' or something like that.


Castrol is OEM for many manufactures. BMW for sure, and Fords 'Heavy Duty Fluid' was just rebottled Castrol 4 Synthetic, without the price hike.

No need to go to the expensive stuff like Motul or AP racing fluids for a street car, or for the occasional track event. Just rebleed with fresh fluid if before an event and if you get some heat into the system bleed the calipers of any boiled fluid.

Do not bother with most of the fluids that are found off the shelf at local auto shop chain stores. Most of that stuff is pure liquid *****.

You could have all sorts of uber brake goodness, but if the tires are bricks they will not allow you to use the full stopping potential. Gotta have good grippy rubber.

chrisnick has good recommendations. The brakes/suspension on these cars are pretty good as is. Just make sure everything is up to snuff and go out, have fun, and learn your car.

I believe you mean 5.1, and not silly-cone 5.

 

I have always liked Akebono pads. They are great for the street. I am not sure I would choose them for a 30 lap race, but for an autocross they should be fine.

 

Yep!

Found that out when I attempted to install the rear EX swaybar I removed from my '96 and install it on my '97 DX/VP.

The spots on the rear lower control arm are present, however the two middle braces on the subframe are missing the threaded nut. The hole is there, so you theoretically could install it if you remove the subframe and welded one from the other side or something I guess.

I was really bummed out about that.

The Progress rear has you drill the different mounting points so it only uses the ones on either trailing arm.

 

[QUOTE=MAD_MIKE;49634527]Really? Learn something new everyday.

MCs cannot be 'upgraded'.
One would only change MC size if the brake system requires different pressure/volume.
Proper caliper upgrades rarely require MC changes. If a larger bore MC is needed to compensate for a larger caliper up front then the rear brakes also need to be addressed for correct bias. Otherwise a car with incorrect bias, even if it has uber brakes calipers up front, will take longer to slow/stop than stock.

Brake systems are a system and must be considered as a whole before changes are done.

Again, NO.

If you need more braking power upgrade to the larger 280mm front rotors found on the Wagon/V6 models and the Wagon/V6 calipers/caliper cages to clear the larger rotors. Caliper piston sizes did not change on the front of these vehicles. Even the Odyssey used the same size front calipers as the Coupe/Sedan and the exact same calipers as the Wagon/V6.

Rear disc cars came with a 1" bore MC
Rear drum cars came with a 15/16" MC

As for pressure/volume. If the system remains the same and a larger bore MC is used the pedal will be short and hard with less output pressure. A smaller bore MC will make the pedal longer and softer with more output pressure.

I guess perhaps I should be more clear when I say things like upgrade. I must not know the meaning of upgrade because in my mind it means to switch to something better, bigger? anyway, I know you cant upgrade/ change a mc, mike thanks! you can only go bigger. perhaps I should have stated that.

now I don't know if my eyes play tricks on me because the reason why I even switch to wagon calipers is to get more braking surface area. looking at them its evident the v6/ wagon calipers are bigger. why? to help stop a bigger vehicle. now im only comparing this to my 97 accord se non abs. and this bias you speak of could be corrected with the proper proportioning valve? j/w

I put these bigger brakes on the front and swapped to disc in the back. I had a problem with this because now my pedal traveled farther. why? because more fluid needed to be moved. how do I accomplish that? upgraded/ use bigger mc than stock. am I still wrong mike? let me know. this isn't a jab at you im merely trying to learn. if my is wrong let me know.

 

^^ I think he was just saying that even though the caliper is bigger, the piston in it is not, therefore you don't need a bigger mc since it doesn't displace more fluid? That's what I gathered.

Thanks for the responses guys, I think I will just take it to the track in stock form, or maybe get sticker tires, but wait on the other upgrades so I get a feel for what it really needs

 

I got it as well with the same piston diameter but im talking about the void behind the piston. guess it doesnt matter. I was just sharing my experience with a certain setup.

 

Better, sure. Bigger not always. But in you references changing calipers to be bigger, which I take to mean a larger piston, is not always better.
Balance in the system must be maintained. If changing your brakes to match a same/similar cars brake system, you must use ALL the parts that associated with the other cars system. Have a DX drum and change to an EX disc, you must use all the hydraulic hardware, from MC > PV > caliper > rotor sizes.(excluding ABS bits) With body types, you will want to verify the PV is the same or different from coupe/sedan/wagon.
Depends on the car, but you can always find a larger or smaller bore MC. Might be custom, but there is no need to change the MC unless there is a change in overall caliper piston sizes/pressure requirements.
I4, V6, Wagon and Odyssey all have the same 57mm front pistons.
Calipers/caliper cages on the V6/Wagon/Ody are slightly different to clear the larger 282mm rotors.
Just to reiterate, same car/drivetrain, but changing from drum to disc. As for bias, no a PV as we know it will not change bias, I'll get to that in a moment...
Changing from the Drum PV to the Disc PV when changing from drum to disc would be a good idea as you want to maintain/mimic what the factory did for a given car/setup.

The system must already be biased through the caliper piston count/size and rotor diameter to correctly work.
Changes in pad material will change frictional properties which will change how/when/how long a compound will grip the rotor. And tire compound as well, this is getting more indepth than the current discussion.

True proportioning does not come from the 'proportional valve'. It is a regulator, or better a brake force regulator. It changes the pressure applied to the rear circuit(s).
True proportional control would require two tandem MCs with different bore sizes to properly match each system, proportionally.(fore/aft)

With our cars we do not have that luxury due to cost/complexity of installing a true proportional system, and the loss of the diagonally split system for safety if one of the circuits fail.

"Proportional valves", as we call them, reduce pressure to the rear circuit(s) after a given pressure. Referred to as the 'knee point' as on a graph the rear system will increase pressure at the same rate as the front until the prop valve reduces pressure where on a graph you will have an angle change or knee point. Pressure still increases with pedal depression but will be increasing at a lower rate compared to the front. This is to prevent the rear wheels from locking up under braking for safety.

If the rears lock they are no longer supplying any braking/slowing force.
If the rears lock up it will most likely make the rear of the car loose and induce a spin which equates to loss of control.
With the rears brakes no longer applying braking force the front system will be overloaded which then will reduce stopping power overall, if the drive is able to maintain control.
At best brake distances will increase, at worst the car will spin out of control.
If you used the Wagon/V6/Ody calipers up front, which are the same 57mm size as the I4 cars, but left the drum 15/16" MC then the problem is simple. To reduce pedal travel, improve modulation, and pedal feel, install the Disc 1" MC found on the EX models with disc rear brakes. This will require an adapter for one port as Honda tends to change one port size or flip the different port sizes front to rear.(I cannot recall what was done on the CD at the moment).

Centric and StopTech websites have whitepapers for a better understanding on brakes. Stop-Tech gets in to the meat and potatoes of how the components function as a system.

Correct. The only differences in MC was from drum or disc rear brakes..

Stickier tires for sure, this is the single best thing to do for the cars suspension performance and grip. Along with fixing anything that is broken/worn. If your sway bar bushings/endlink bushings are worn, replace these. This will allow the sway bars to work and reduce roll. If you get grippier tires but the sway bar hardware is worn out then the car will roll even more now, which can become unnerving and upset the cars handling.
The pistons in the calipers do not retract much when your foot is off the pedal. If wheel bearings are worn or lots of heavy cornering is done pad knockback will cause the pistons to be pushed back into the caliper. Which will need more than normal pedal to push back out, even an extra pump may be needed. Normally this is not an issue as the correct MC bore size for a given system will compensate and you will have a normal pedal feel/travel.

 

Not relevant here, but just for the record, the rear calipers from a Gen 5 wagon (not the V6) have larger diameter pistons than any other Gen 5 Accord calipers, and will interchange with any of them. If you are upgrading the front it is a good idea to upgrade the rear also to keep the factory balance. Also, when pulling the calipers, it is a very good idea to check the diameter of the pistons to see if sometime in the past, some mechanic replaced the calipers, and simply used the much more readily available smaller ones. The standard piston is 34 mm and the wagon piston is 38 mm. Also every wagon I have seen at the salvage yard has been an LX, so no rear discs. That is what makes the calipers so hard to find. BUT, the Acura TL also used the same 38 mm calipers in the mid 90's so that is a much more available source. When I upgraded my fronts, I later upgraded the rears and I can tell the difference. Less chance of locking the fronts.

 

I have the ST Suspension rear anti-sway bar. I like it alot.

 

It kind of is, in fact it's as relevant as the rest of the braking discussion.
Rear caliper pistons are larger due to the big booty(added weight) wagon that is heavier in the rear than a Coupe/Sedan.

I would not opt for these larger 38mm rear caliper pistons on a coupe/sedan.

Locking the fronts is not as much a concern as locking the rears.
It's preferred.

If the fronts lockup the car will not spin. It will plow straight, but usually backing off pedal pressure will unlock the wheels and vehicle control is not lost and can be regained.
With rears if they lock up it usually happens quickly and a spin is more likely to be induced, with little chance of recovery due to the silent killer we call physics.
Using the larger piston wagon calipers on a non wagon will move the bias rearward which will decrease overall brake efficiency and increase the likelihood of rear brake lockup. Not good. This will increase stopping distances and instability while braking.

Wagons are ~3200lbs
Coupe/sedans are 2850-3000lbs.
That extra 200-350lb weight gain is over the rear of the wagon. That's ~10% increase in rear weight. That is why the wagon has the larger piston calipers out back.
Since the wagon has more weight over the rear(we'll assume same tire grip between coupe/sedan and wagons) there is more force(from the added weight) on the rear wheels/tires of a wagon than a coupe/sedan. Increasing the rear piston sizes(only) will increase pressure > which increases clamp force > which allows more braking power to the rear without worry of inducing lockup thanks to the added rear weight of the wagon(rough translation).

As for increasing front rotor size, slightly increasing diameter is not going to affect bias much, if at all, when the rotor is only increased in size by a small margin. Usually an increase of an inch will not screw up balance. An increase will increase thermal capacity and swept area which will enhance stopping power under hard braking.

 

This is very informative, thanks MADMIKE. So if the EX has discs in the rear, does it also have larger diameter rotors up front so that the bias doesn't get offset to the rear? Or does the proportional valve prevent that?

 

In the case of my car, I have 300 mm rotors and NSX calipers on the front, so I needed some extra braking in the rear. I can tell it has helped because there is no tendency for the ABS to take over under extreme braking as it did before, like when you are on a road that does not have optimal traction. Also, I run 215 tires on the front and 225 on the rear, so that also makes a difference as well.

 

very informative. seems mad mike knows his **** when I comes to brakes! appreciate the information mike.