I have been presented with an VERY interesting business proposition. I have the opportunity to produce in mass volume turbo manifolds that will bolt up a DSM or EVO 4-8 turbos to B series or D Series Engines for a VERY low cost. Of course these would have to be mass produced in the thousands. I would have to take a business loan out in order for me to this.

So before I take the risk of taking out a loan I want to gauge the interest. Now to start I will only be able to get one or the other, not both. So the market (you guys) will decide which, if either, I will have built first.

First here picture of “some-what” it would look like for the EVO 4-8 manifolds.


This is a picture of an actual EVO 8 tubular manifold. So it won't be the exact same but will give you an idea. The obvious advantage of this setup is the use of the twin scroll design, as well as the size. The Evo 4-8 TD05HR-16G is significantly large the the TD05H-16G found on the EVO 3. Also the use of a twin scroll manifold/turbine housing increases peak power and reduces turbo lag in comparison to it's single scroll counterpart (if there were one). Also another great benefit is that EVO turbos are selling for around $100-$200 used on the various websites, like ebay, craigslist, because of the low demand for them (though this will likely change if this manifold sells well. Lastly, both the EVO 4-8 and DSM put the 02 housing in the same spot. So if there is a down-pipe for your car that is designed to fit DSM-style turbos, then it will work with minimal (if any) modifications. The disadvantage is that no body sells aftermarket replacements for the EVO 4-8 turbos. You HAVE to get an OEM MHI turbo, so you're options are either get one used or pay for the new OEM price.
Prices for theses manifolds will be some where around $125-$175



Now the DSM/EVO 3 Turbo manifolds are the exact opposite. Pictures:


The smaller 16g compressor wheel flows a max of 555 cfm or 44 lbs/min. which is still moving but I'd like to think the TD05HR will flow far better. The single scroll design means less peak power and slightly longer spool. And the advantage is that there are a TON and mean a TOOOON of 16g replacement turbos on Ebay. I have personally installed one of the EVO III GT turbos into a 2g DSM and it worked beautifully. Because of these over crowded market of Chin-Ebay turbos that are brand new and competitively priced.
Prices for theses manifolds will be some where around $100-$150

 

This is just a feeler for the market. I am only seeing if there a market at all of these AND which manifold to produce.

PLEASE DO NOT CONTACT ME ABOUT SALES INQUIRES (including email/PMs)!!!!

First, I don't have any, so I can't sell you any. Second, even if I had them I am not a registered vendor on Honda-Tech. If/when the time comes I will pay to become a vendor to sell these manifolds.

 

I was thinking more like $100 for a cast manifold made in the USA.

While I have respect for all people of the world, I don't think taking a business loan and sending the money overseas is good for our economy right now.

 

would be kinda cool but i dont see this taking off for you maybe do a limited run maybe as long as there a tad bit better quality than ebay manifolds.

 

i would be interested in a cheap D series manifold for evo 8 or 9 turbo. I really wanna do a budget setup with one down the road but I can't believe no one makes honda manifolds that fit those turbos.

 

x2

 

Believe it. The market for such a combination is rather skiddish at best. It's mainly because of two reasons. 1) Evolution guys really keep those turbochargers as backup or upgrade their current setup. 2) Cost for the setup. by the time all of the flanges and gaskets are found, a universal setup would be less expensive with more power potential. Only the seriously mechanically inclined will embark on such an endeavor.

 

When looking at turbos, honestly DSM and EVO turbos never came up. Everyone was talking about Garrett, Precision, Turbonetics and once in a while, Holset. The Greddy kit came up, but everyone said it was too small for a lot of them.

Unless you can people's attention with the manifold before they buy a turbo, it may be a tough sell. I doubt I'm the only one who bought my turbo first.

Not knocking your manifold, but used T3s can be found for $1-200. And cheap turbo manifolds can be found for $100-200.

 

CTD-Fab (H-T name) has been building custom manifolds for this exact application for a while.

 

OK, well that answers my question. My thought process was that approximately 80% of the cars in the import market with engines 2.0L and under are making around 400 HP or less. This turbo would very nicely accommodate those goals.

The problem is, I see so many tuners get huge turbos and never see past 350 HP. I think it's a shame to see a B20X, SR20DET, 4G63, etc. running GT30R/GT35R turbos and not making any real numbers. The import market has been deceptively hypnotized into believing that BIG turbos = BIG horse power. My personal car, a 1992 Plymouth Laser RS (AWD), is running an EVO III 16g and makes just shy of 400hp at all four wheels. A personal friend of mine has a 1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX with a 50 trim and he has to be making around 300 AWHP.

One of the fastest cars in the local spot is a 4 door DA Integra, running a pretty small turbo. But the engine is running in tip-top conditions, holds boost well and is tuned very well.

However, if I can't break the thought process that a BIG turbos won't automatically give you BIG power and LOW ETs, I've wasted my money. Unless I see a serious interest in the next few weeks. I can't afford the risk.

 

I don't think its the thought process that you need to worry about. Its the fact that out of ALL of the examples that you've listed to make use of these smaller turbochargers like the Evo8 and 9, you've devoted your concentration on the actual displacement of the engines but not the high efficiency characteristics of the honda cylinder head that the B and K series VTEC engines exhibit that makes it very different from the others. These VTEC cylinder heads are LEAPS and BOUNDS ahead of the others that you listed in terms of CFM flow and their ability to burn energy quickly and effectively.

Couple that with the fact that the Honda VTEC engines are mainly run at over 3 points compression higher compared to the other engine platforms that you're stating, and you see why mainly mid-framed sized turbos are used as a standard. They fit better in the efficiency island of these B & K engines moreso than those that are 36lbs/min -42lbs/min where the 16G6 fits nicely . What you consider to be a LARGE turbo for a SR20DET or a 4G63, is actually a medium sized application for a Honda B or K motor, because of the high efficiency burning characteristics of these engines compared to the 4G63, A853, 4B11, and SR20DET, in which the turbocharger could easily be out of its efficiency range, even though it fits perfectly for another platform.

I'm not saying you're completely off. Too many people get a turbocharger too large for their needs or use for the off-chance possibility that they "want to grow later", in an effort to avoid buying another turbocharger at a later time. Most people figure it out later and either get another, more reasonable turbocharger, or just get out of the game altogether for something completely different. The fact that there is a growing market of those that use up to 350whp is needed, and only a B18C1, B18C5 would really benefit from your manifold/turbo combination, as long as the customer was informed about what the turbo can and can't do for their particular needs. Your product is promising but it has to fit that niche of people. A lot of what I do has the same small following, so don't feel alone in this. For example, there are several posts on a thread that concentrates on the use of the 16G6 on a B18C1, but that person was VERY specific with what they were looking for. That's rare in this case, and with many other forums that work on turbocharged platforms..

I do think that K7-1Ktrevor is on the right track by using your product on the D-series engines, or those that want to use a straight LS cylinder head on a B-series. I think your product would carry MUCH more weight with those two engine platforms than the VTEC B-series.

In a nutshell, I'm saying that you're using the logic of "A 2.0 Litre is a 2.0 Litre in the import market". that logic is a bit over-generalized, because not all 1.8-2.0 litres are created equal when it comes to the use of a turbocharger in its effective range. You have to understand each platform individually and create products that take advantage of the characteristics for THAT platform. Not group them all together under one umbrella.

 

well put. look at the vw 2.0L vs a b20vtec. 106bhp vs around 200bhp na.

 

That's my TigArt manifold with a Evo6 16g.

There's a guy over here in the UK that builds 16g based turbo kits for B series, he makes 300hp on a stock B16 at 10psi & 330hp at 12psi IIRC.

Bill

 

was this brake hp? or to the wheels? This does make a difference. But this is an interesting example. The Evolution 6 had a nice 9cm 11 bladed 16G6.

 

BHP not WHP

This is a dyno plot the guy selling the kits has put up





This is the specs for my turbo...

Evolution 6
Turbo = TD05HR-16G6-10.5T (GSR)
Nozzle Area (cm2) = 10.5
Turbine = GSR - Inconel (steel alloy)
Compressor = Aluminium, 68mm wide


Once I have my built block up & running next on the list is going for an upgrade on the turbo. There's a 20g cold side that should give more power for not much money at all!

Bill

 

That means there's a drop of about 15.5% from BHP to WHP :-(. but the 20G will help. For those that aren't familiar, a 10.5cm "nozzle" is about .79A/R. not bad.

 

I always thought a 16g would do very nicely on a Bseries.

 

There are several 16Gs that are used from DSMs and Evolutions with the 16G6 10cm being the largest. They range from 36lbs/min-40lbs/min for airflow. (as a mode of comparison you're used to, the T3/T04E 50 trim is 49lbs/min, GT3071R is about 50lbs/min)

The best use of any of the 16g Mitsu series on ANY b-series is the LS longblock. I've found that they just don't have enough CFM in the crucial areas of the rpm band like with the VTEC B and K series, so it makes it perfect in the lower powerband.. The LS and D-series would justify the work of doing project for this 16G6 turbo.

small 16g 36lbs/min or 520cfm






Large 16G 37lbs/min 540cfm







TD05HR-16G6 10.5cm Used on the Mitsubishi Evolutions 7-9 580cfm 40lbs/min. Smaller variant for the Evolution 4






As a comparison a TD05H-18G is 590cfm 41lbs/min




Also, a 20G is 620cfm or 44lbs/min. (the one shown is in a TD06 Compressor cover, which allows 10CFM more





The problem is of course that the flapper door and actuator of the 18G that comes from the Greddy Kit that limits the power potential as a bolt up. In the Honda camp, Those that convert to External gate, or upgrade that actuator actually do over 350whp with this on the VTEC b-series. The 18G and 20G is the only one I would recommend for a b-series VTEC engine, while the LS and D-series can use the 16G.

 

I've seen a very nice dyno plot of an LS making 300whp with a very broad powerband with a 16g. Cant seem to find it now but its in the LST thread.

 

Which 16g? Can you recall?