92' EG 650/700, -1.8 camber, v700. Mostly used for road courses, some auto-x.

I've finally started to concentrate on getting my car sorted. Right now I'm experiencing too little front grip and too little rotation. I wanted to see what you thoughts were on this ...

I was talking to Jim at Advance Design and he recommended decreasing my camber to -3.2 up front and -2 rear, also increasing my spring rate differential by going to a 700/800 setup and replacing my 22mm ITR rear bar with a 26mm adjustable.

What's the best way to induce that much neg camber? I purchased a Junk/2 camber kit, which I have decided to sell because of the high number of failures I've read about. Jim said that if I didn't have to be legal for a certain class I could cut out a half inch section out of the upper control arms (doesn't sound very safe), or bend the upper control arms. I asked about offset bushings and he didn't think I could enduce that much neg camber using offset bushings...

WWJD if he wanted more grip and rotation?



[Modified by SpiceyRice, 7:52 AM 9/12/2002]

 

IMO, you don't need that much negative camber. -2 is plenty with high spring rates, especially if you swap the arms.

Warren

 

Warren is correct. That magical -3 that people toss about is far MacPherson strut type cars that do not gain (and some lose quite a bit) camber during a corner. Hondas have a much better camber curve under compression, so do not need as much static negative camber.

 

Interesting... He was pretty adamant about having -3 degrees. Before talking to him my gut instinct was to go with -2.2. I guess the only real way to be sure it to test the setup with a pyrometer and I might as well start testing with my existing -1.7/-1.9.

BTW, what pyrometer do you guys recommend? Probe or IR, make/model? Thanks



[Modified by SpiceyRice, 10:41 AM 9/12/2002]

 

How much is dependent on the tire, wheel width, caster, track layout..... one size does not fit all! I run 2.75 to 3.2 front, 1.8 rear, on my 93 GSR rolling on Toyo RA1's, 650f, 800r, 2.2 caster. I believe Roger Foo use to run as much as 5 degrees negative in his Honda on some tracks.


[Modified by DB1-R81, 8:52 AM 9/12/2002]

 

The alignment settings are totally dependent on feel! If you feel you could go faster through that certain corner, put more negative in. The side load is what really determines how much negative you should be running. The idea of negative camber is - the faster you go the more the tire deflects. Negative camber helps to reposition the tire as to create as much of a footprint as possible during cornering loads. On the WC cars we run anywhere from 3 degrees to 5 degrees on the front and up to 4 on the rear dependent on a given track layout.

I have used the Skunk2 upper control arms with no problems. Maybe it's because we modify them first with use of larger bolts to spread the load better and a die grinder to allow more negative adjustment.

rog

 

somewhat related...

would spring rates have an effect on the amount of negative camber needed? It would seem that the stiffly sprung WC cars might need more than let's say a 500lb sprung HPDE car since they (WC) are not getting much adjustment from the suspension compression. Not argueing... just thinking "out loud".

 

You've listed several thing you want to do in order to increase rotation. Do one at a time starting with the larger rear sway bar or go with a 900# spring in the rear. I would go 900# springs in the rear first, then try the 26mm bar if not happy. I would also pay close attention to tire temps before running that much neg camber.

 

Yes, spring rates do alter the amount a car would lean and absorb irregularities. Actually, my Civic was not much different than most HPDE or ECHC cars. I built the eg as a SOHC ITS car first and did not go through the firewall to stiffen the chassis. Spring rates of 500-650lbs in front are what we ran. Again it really depends on how the car feels.

And by the way - I have not found tire temps to be the cure all! There are things you can do as a driver that manipulate the temps before you probe them. They really relay the temps from your last hard corner, wheel spin or braking. I have had the car work the best for me when the temps are all over the board. Not saying one way is better than the other, just that it really comes down to how the car feels to you -the driver!

Good luck.
rog

 

a 22mm or 23mm OEM rear bar is plenty 26mm equals=waste of good money....key is the rear rates....

 

i'm running -3f -2r on remix right now. it was -2.5 -2 before. the -.5 did not feel anything different (didn't feel like i gained additional cornering grip) but it sure as hell is killing my inside fronts (from cornering on track). i think 2.0-2.5 is plenty. i'm running 560/560 rates.

delsol currently has about -1.5 front and back, and the car feels good actually. but out side soulder is getting killed instead of the inside first. but it last a LOT longer (ie, the moderate wear rate of outside wear with -1.5 camber vs very fast inside wear with -3 camber). right now on remix the inside goes WAY too fast. unless you are looking for that last few 10th racing, i think more than 2.25 front is a waste for school/fun events.

as for skunk2/z.speed camber arm slipping. i have zero problem slipping with mine. i've hit plenty of big pot holes in sf bay, and i've done thousands of track miles with it, including plenty of curb climbing on track.

 

Ewan, you are going to have major issues putting power to the ground with that much neg. camber in the front. You are already traction limited IMO. You can already break traction at the VTEC crossover in 2nd gear...
Will also affect your braking.
Go with the Saner bar in the rear, and higher rates.

edit: that was on street tires now that I think of it. Haven't driven your car on stickies. Probably not so limited there, but still a good indicator of your footprint.



[Modified by madhatter, 9:31 AM 9/13/2002]