I ran into a problem this past winter with my 'Teg.

I currently have a pretty much stock '00 GS-R sedan. So last winter I snagged some nice 16x7 RPF1 wheels which weigh around 13lbs apiece (without tire) on Craigslist. They were wrapped in Falken ZX912. According to my calculations this combo is just slightly lighter than the stock GS-R Blades, by 1.5-2lbs max.

So my problem was this: when it was snowing (and since I live in Boston that happens) the car would become almost uncontrollable since the wheels would start spinning right away with no traction. I couldn't even make it up the hill in some cases! This didn't happen with my previous heavy Motegis that had Falken 512 tires on them.

Now, I know the GS-R has 128lb/ft of torque (give or take) so it's not a torque monster. I checked the tires and they still have some decent thread left. So now I ask, how is this possible? Falkens 512s seem to be decent all-season tires, are 912s really that bad? Or those couple of lbs in wheel weight make that much difference?

 

i have 912 on my gsr, i drove around on snow just fine at winter season. not the best, but made home. (spun out at corner, by going too fast, my fault. lol)

next iam getting bridgestone blizzak just to be safe.

 

This could have happened for any number of reasons, but not necessarily the ones you mention.

The Falken Ziex ZE-912 (as it's properly called) is the replacement for their ZE-512. Both are cheap all-season tires, not the worst around, but not the best by any means. The ZE-912 isn't any worse than the ZE-512, so you can rule that out as a cause.

Also, the few pounds difference in wheel weight isn't going to make any difference in the amount of grip you have on snow, so you can rule that out, too.

The big problem is that all-season tires are designed as a compromise, designed to grip okay in moderate to warm temperatures but they won't do as well as summer tires, and designed to grip okay in snow and frigid cold but they won't do as well as winter tires. This is true of ALL all-season tires, although some are better than others. For example, one of the best is the Bridgestone Potenza RE960AS Pole Position; another good one, not quite as good as the RE960AS but less expensive, almost as low in price as the ZE-912, is the Kumho Ecsta ASX. But if you really care about grip in the winter, do what oversea recommends: get a set of good winter tires (e.g. Bridgestone Blizzak WS-60, Michelin X-Ice Xi2) and get them mounted on a cheap set of steelies or used wheels so you don't have to get them remounted every year. One set of winter tires will last you many years, because they don't get that many miles since you only use them three months a year. And they will give you better grip than all-seasons on snow, and on ice, and on dry pavement when the temperatures are bitter cold, too.

Just to mention other possible causes...

You say that the tires have "some decent tread left". How decent is "decent"? The ZE-912 comes with 10/32" of tread depth when new. Tires become a lot more slippery in low-grip conditions when their tread depth is down. For example, a tire with 2/32" of tread depth - when the treadwear indicator bars are flat across the tread and they're required to be replaced, by law - has double the braking distance in rain compared with a new tire, and even at 4/32" of tread depth, the braking distance increases by 50 percent. In snow, it's even worse, and the Tire Rack notes that for snow use, you may want to replace tires with as much tread as 6/32". So what may look like "some decent tread left" may be perfectly fine in nice weather on dry pavement, but may be totally inadequate for use in snow.

Also, wider tires are slightly better for cornering on dry pavement, but narrower tires give you better grip in rain and snow. So those 205/45-16 tires you're probably using may be fine in summer, but they won't grip as well as stock-sized 195/55-15 tires in snow. (You can also get winter tires in 185/65-14, and yes, they will fit on a GS-R. BTDT.)

Bottom line, though - if you plan to do much driving in the winter around Boston, you really ought to consider a set of winter tires, like the Blizzak WS-60 or X-Ice Xi2.

 

Thanks for the info d00dz.

I would prefer to avoid having snow tires for several reasons. One is I have 2 cars with 2 different sets of rims for each (4 total) already and since I live in a condo I barely have enough space to store those. Furthermore, swapping rims is a pain again because of condo rules. But the main reason is that having snow tires negates the whole point of fwd. If I ever decide to go with snow tires it will be only because I switched to a rwd car for the winter. I've been using fwd with all-season tires for many years now and last winter was the first one when I had problems.

Now that aside switching from 20lb Motegi XR7 to 13lb RPF1 actually made a tremendous difference even though sizes of both wheels are 16x7. It felt like somebody removed an anchor from the car. It started to accelerate noticeably faster and when there is traction it feels lighter on its feet so to speak. But lighter wheels are obviously far easier to break loose which I think is what happened last winter. Imho, the problem was caused by a combination of too-light wheels and inadequate tires that break traction easily.

What I'm trying to figure out is that if I change the tires to different all-season set (and it looks like I'll have to), would I still be able to use these wheels in the snow or are they just too light?

 

I really don't think wheel weight has anything to do with it. Tires are everything. Tires are the most important thing on the car and making any change to tires has the biggest difference to braking, handling, and acceleration. A change in tire compound has 1000 times more effect than wheel weight.

Until a few weeks ago I had a Civic that I put together for snow. It had HX rims with Michelin Xice2 tires and an JDM D series LSD tranny. It was unbelievable. I was able to stop and go on ice. I was able to drive in snow so deep it dragged against the bottom of the car. No one could believe it.

Before I had the snow tires and HX rims on it I had 15x6.5 inch Rota Slipstreams on it with some Kumho summer tires. It snowed unexpectedly early in the season and I wasn't even able to get out of the driveway.

One thing that happens to tires is that the outermost rubber glazes over and hardens. They make a chemical you can pour on them to eat off this layer. But I don't know if you can use it on a street car.

 

Resurrecting a 2 month-old thread.

I decided to get rid of those ZE-912s. Any suggestions for a good inexpensive (but not cheapest) all-season tires that can handle rain/snow well?

 

I would look around on tirerack.com and read their reviews/tests on tires.

 

I second that. TireRack has great info.

Also, if you've got the cash I'd seriously consider getting snow tires and storing them in a buddy's garage. Snow tires make a HUGE difference in safety and usability in poor conditions, and if you get a set of snows, you can make fewer compromises when selecting warm-season tires.

 

^what he said. otherwise, kumho asx or something equivalent

 

ay jomama long time no see around here

Im definatly going with blizzaks for this winter and getting some new wheels/summertires next summer... Yeah all season tires are ok but i want the peace of mind knowing i have damn near the best keeping me going the direction i want

 

I recommend one of these: BFGoodrich g-Force Super Sport A/S ($92), Kumho Ecsta ASX ($78), Pirelli PZero Nero M&S ($109). Prices are from the Tire Rack website for 205/45-16.

 

I'm still lurking

 

Looks like Kumho Ecsta ASX is the favorite of many around here. The other ones seem a tad expensive and pure snow tires are out of the question since I don't have enough storage space and don't feel like swapping wheels twice per year anyway. Any sales anywhere on the Kumhos?

 

Regarding the storage space issue, there are racks available to store tires on the wall, and it would be relatively simple to make one (I'm assuming you have a small storage unit of some sort in your condo). Just something to consider.

"All-season" is a misnomer. The safety and control offered by a narrower winter tire with a deep tread and a low-temperature tread compound is well worth the inconvenience associated with storage. I don't agree that it "negates the whole point of fwd".

 

the best thing you can do for this is get a dedicated winter tire for your car. this is what happened to me last winter here in WI, i bought a WRX for its AWD and great handeling in the snow. right? well i have a good set of "all season" tires. all of this paired together should be a a good combo.(you would think) however i bought my G/F a set of Blizzaks for her Civic because well she is new to snow and it is only FWD. well it turns out her car handeled about 10x better than the WRX in the snow it came down to the tire choice. so if i were you i would find a set of stock steelies and throw a set of winter tires on there i personally vouge for the Blizzaks. they are a bit more expensive but worth every penny when it comes to keeping **** on the road and being able to stop. thus preventing from having to make a claim on you insurance hicking your rates up costing you more money in the end! so buy a winter tire and you will have solved your problem.

 

Well, this may be a matter of personal situation and convenience. But it doesn't take much space or time.

The space needed for four tires stacked is approximately four square feet (two by two) in a garage, basement, closet, or storage space.

Swapping wheels twice a year doesn't take a lot of time or effort. It's easy on the Integra, since you can put the jack under the jacking point just behind the front wheel and jack up the entire side of the car, so you can change both tires on that side with one jacking. You need a torque wrench (such as this one for $15) and a deep 19 mm socket (a few bucks at any hardware or auto parts store). If you don't want to use the jack in your trunk, you can save yourself some time with a hydraulic jack. You can get a cheap one for $20 or so at a department store (Wal-Mart) or auto parts store. If you have a lowered car (so you need one with a smaller minimum lift height), if you need to take it elsewhere to use it (so a lighter weight one is an advantage), or if you want one that takes up less space, I recommend this compact one for $90. I can change all four wheels/tires on my Integra in about twenty minutes, and I'm not an expert mechanic.

Here are the 205/45-16 prices for the Kumho ASX from the big internet tire dealers:
Tire Rack $78/tire plus shipping
tires-easy.com $79.70/tire plus shipping
Discount Tire Direct $86/tire with free shipping

Shipping typically runs $15-20 per tire.

You'll need to pay for mounting and balancing at the store of your choice, typically $10-20 per tire.

 

I wasn't looking for advice on how to store wheels/tires or how to swap them. My condo has a small storage unit which is already near full. I have 2 vehicles and each has 2 sets of wheels. For various reasons I'd prefer not to use the stock twisties so I'm stuck with the rpf1s that are currently on it. And you are all forgetting that I live in a condo. Apparently it's against condo rules to do any sort of car work on premises. There are ways around that but it's a pain. So I would strongly prefer to just run 1 set of wheels all year round. Let's just leave it at that.

Any other all-season recommendations? Are ASXs that much better than Falken 512s?

On the other hand, I do use Integra sparingly in the winter since the other car is a convertible. How long do your average snow tires live and how bad would they be in the summer? I put maybe 2-3K miles tops on 'Teg between May and November when the other car steps out of the garage.

 

Cool, this thread is very relevant to me.

 

The wear on a winter tire is greatly accelerated when the ambient temperature rises. The tread compound is formulated to grip at low temperatures, which means it will be very soft in summer conditions. I have been told that they shouldn't be used at temperatures above 15 deg C (59 deg F). You'll wear them out pretty quickly in the summer.

If you absolutely must run all-seasons, then I'd recommend something with a deep tread, a lot of voids, and a tread pattern that will move water away from the centre of the tread (obviously this is the point of tire treads, but some are better than others). This is especially important when running a wider tire (I run a 185/65/14 winter tire on my DA for this reason).

You won't get the benefit of the low-temperature compound and you'll be compromising the dry-pavement performance, but you should be able to find something that's serviceable in light snow and mild winter temperatures.

 

Snow tires last me years (I've got four winters on mine but they're probably ready to be replaced) but only if they are driven only in winter. I have taken them on long road trips where I'm sure they've warmed up quite a bit, and they handle that OK, but I wouldn't want to use them year round, particularly on long drives. Plus, they aren't the best feeling on dry pavement. They feel pretty squishy, and the effect worsens with increased temperature. If you only want one pair of tires you should just get all season tires, and get soft, less aggressive tires that can handle snow and slush since summer performance doesn't seem important to you.

 

Ok, so it looks like winter tires year round is simply not worth it as I do sometimes take longer trips in the summer on the Teg since the other car is small and not very comfy.

I've been reading some ASX reviews and some people say they're decent on snow while other say they're horrible. Any thoughts on why that may be? I know that ZE-512s are good on the snow from personal experience, should I get them instead of ASXs?

 

Yes, they are significantly better. But they are still all-season tires, and all-season tires are a compromise, with greater flexibility to handle a wider range of weather conditions but less grip than tires designed for a specific type of weather.

I would not recommend using winter tires in the summer, even if your summer mileage is minimal. If you need to use tires year round, then get all-seasons.

To answer your question, though, I've generally gotten 20-30K miles to my winter tires on my Integras. They generally last me up to 10 years, since I only drive on them 2-3K miles during the three months I use them each year.

Because they are all-season tires, and they aren't as good on snow as winter tires.

The first part of your question is debatable. I sure wouldn't agree, but then again, I use winter tires, which are far superior to all-seasons in snow.

You seem to somehow have the idea that the ZE-512 is better on snow than the ZE-912. It isn't. The ZE-912 is slightly better than the ZE-512, and was intended to replace it in Falken's tire line. I don't know why they're still selling the ZE-512.

 

If you look at the top of the thread you will see that I had 2 sets of wheels on this car. One was a set of heavy Motegis with ZE-512s, the other is my current set of RPF1s with ZE-912s. There is no comparison between those tires. I was able to drive on snow with 512s without any major problems for 3 winter seasons. Last season I had the 912s and I had by far the most awful experience with it. The car would lose traction on even the lightest snow, spin wheels constantly and generally be very unstable on snow with ABS being on quite often. So providing the difference was only slightly attributed to the rims and the rest of the drivetrain is identical as well as wheel/tire size, in my personal experience the 912s are an order of magnitude worse than the 512s.

I've done some research on the web and it looks like I wasn't alone. Quite a few people had trouble with 912s on the snow and they were rated ok at best with several people having the same complaints I do. So 912s got to go!

 

I had nitto neo gens out in the snow at the beggining of this year. They did fine until i actually started pushing/plowing snow with the bumper.

 

I run steelies with Blizzaks on my teg in the winter, it does great!!