i have an Ls.. i dont want to go FI so im going ls/vtec.... 2 questions

1. is rebuilding my bottom end mandatory yes/no why is yes?

2. will be car relatively be faster then a stock type r ?!

i jsut want to do a littl homework before i jump into this....

would it be cheaper if i just drop a type r engine in my ls?!?!

 

1. is rebuilding my bottom end mandatory yes/no why is yes?
It would be a good idea. LS/VTEC engines have a poor R/S ratio, and the block can't withstand high rpm nature, which VTEC thrives on.

2. will be car relatively be faster then a stock type r ?!
If built properly with a higher redline and bumped compression ratio, I guess so...

would it be cheaper if i just drop a type r engine in my ls?!?
Um, Hype R engines are hella expensive. A B16A head isn't.

 

Answer
1. No its not mandatory to rebuild bottom end to have an LSVTEC.
But it is recomended to rebuild because
a) ur taking the engine apart anyway
b) In normally aspirated engines, you have to rev it to get HPs and the LS block was not designed to sustain high rpms like the B18c. Sure it will rev but it will not last.
2. No it will not be faster than a type R. You only have a 30cc advantage. 30cc will not make you faster. If All things being equal when it comes to efficientcy, and given an approximate of 100HP/liter, the 30 cc will only give you 3HPs (give or take 1 or 2 hps) think you will feel 3HPs????
Type-R and GSR motors have all the advantages over an LS. Slapping on a vtec head gets you up to where the donor engine (either B16, GSR, or Type-R) is when it comes to air flow on the head. But you will still lag on the bottom end. (Oil squirter, Oil cooler, Forged rods, friction reducing ceramic coated bearings, bigger oil pump, girdle...etc)

Why do people do an LS-vtec? Because they have the LS block already and thought it would be cheaper to go LS-Vtec. Its also a nice project and gives the owner a sense of satisfaction.
The argument is partly true. Will it be reliable. Yes if you drive it like an LS engine (means no 8000-9000 rpms).
Will it outrun and outlast a b16, B18Cs. Outrun, not really. Outlast. Defenitely not.

 

No, it is not necessary, but it would be a good idea. The LS block has a less than perfect rod stroke ratio... understand... the GSR is no R/S queen, but the LS is slightly worse.. this increases the tendancy to 'side load' the pistons, putting greater stress on the cylinder walls. You don't need to sleeve it, but you should at least upgrade the rod bolts.... this does not require a full rebuild... but there are other thing s you must consider.
The low compression of an LS will not do the vtec effect justice... ie: You'll be slow. You will need to replace the pistons with a higher CR piston like a GSR, ITR, CTR or B16 piston. You will also need a vtec/B20 oil pump to support the engines new found desire for oiling of the head. You should replace the timing belt and water pump w/ new ones... (timing belt will be different) Might as well replace the clutch with a fresh one while yer at it. A block girdle from Z10 or a GSR would be recommended for extended life, but is not necessary.

Properly done, your motor will create more Hp and Tq... and the displacement difference will be 93 cc, not 30cc as listed... I'm pretty sure about that... but don't have the figures on me. LSVT would be kinda crappy for only 30ccs. But you might not necessarily be faster as you still have the LS tranny, which, wtih longer gears... makes you accelerate slower, regardless of power.

No, it won't... an ITR engine goes for about $4K these days... adropping $4K on an LSVT will get you a built bottom end (rods/pistons) and prolly a GSR tranny too.

Oh yeah... all B series rods are forged... they just aren't huge.. so they have a limited power threshold.

X2

 

Am I missing something......
LS 1834cc (bore=81 stroke=89)
GSR 1797cc (bore=81 stroke=87.2)
Difference of 37cc.

How did you get 93.. are you talking about a restoked or rebored LS block??

Also, LS block have forged crankshaft.
GSRs and Type Rs have forged crankshaft AND Connecting rods.

Please correct me if I'm wrong..

 

1. Rebuilding the bottom is essential if you want to take advantage of your high revving vtec head, want it to stay together for more then a year, and after you decide which way you want to go (FI or NA) stronger rods and pistons won't hurt esp. if you want to take advantage of the setup (Motor is apart why not).

2. It can be faster then a ITR but in order to do that you would come out about the same as if you bought a vtec motor in the 1st place.

It all depends you can half *** it and have relatively quick motor that may not last long (I mean over 2 years long) or you can spend the money (Making it more then buying a vtec motor collectively) and get a little more torque then your vtec b-series brethren. ? for you. Have you ever thought about going boost (Find a B20 bottom end and build it up. Probably cheaper and faster then anything to do with a LS/CRVTEC

 

Sorry about the misinformation... the cc diff is not 93... dont' know what I was thinking ! You are correct about the displacement diff of 37cc... maybe I was on CRvtecs ?

And as far as everyone claiming you should build the bottom end for LSVT... as long as it's built right... built internals will not save you from a bad RS ratio... that is all hype. Now if the block is sleeved, that's different... but who needs to sleeve a motor that won't see boost ? Dunno....

X2

 

thank you for the reply.... but im thinking about driving the car fopr a coupe years to come actually.... but im just sick and tired of my car not moving! i have to keep this car since its financed right now so im stuck.. other wise id just buy a gsr but i cant.. thats where i came up with the idea of going ls/vtec.... so is it worth my while?? and its litteraly impossible to find a b20 block in canada right now so that idea is scartched out.... i dont want FI... so my only other conclusion is going ls/vtec.. .so how long will my engine last if i do go this route?

 

I am not sure exactly how long the LSVT would last. I mean mine is fully balanced and blueprinted and when I hit 8K, the motor does not feel like it's straining at all.... mind you I don't have the GSR or Z10 girdle installed !

I don't know why people say LSVT's don't last... but here's my guess...

Most LSVTs are not done right... they are built on guess work and assumption that just putting on the vtec head will solve all of their problems. Little attention is paid to oil lines, lengths, tolerences, balanceing, etc. The problem of the bad R/S is not something I think would be detrimental to the engine's life.... yes, bad R/S ratios will end up wearing your piston rings more rapidly, but killing your motor ? Bah... Many other cars have existed with bad R/S ratios.... hell my friend's old 2.0 prelude with the B20A, which has a much worse R/S than the B18b/a rolled on for over 200K miles of hard, redline daily driving and the motor is still running ! (Granted the motor didn't rev to 8K..but...eh..)

Just like the old saying goes... If you're not breaking things, you're not making enough power !

X2

 

Hey X2:

If at all possible, can you list how you put your motor together? What parts did you use and such. I'm THIS close to building an LS/VTEC motor, but thrown between stories of blown motors and whatnot. What did you do that makes your motor different from all the other horror stories that I've heard? THANX!

 

My motor is built... not exactly your 'stock' LSVT setup... so might be different... you have a PM.

 

attention to detail is ESSENTIAL -in any sort of engine modification,

time = money

thats why building it yourself over 6 weeks is WAYYYY better than paying a shop to build it in a day or two!

plus you KNOW how it was put together, torqued to specs, seals seated etc etc etc!

plus if you have a problem it is easier to trace as YOU built it.

but again - attention to detail is paramount.

t..

PS dunno why im going on about this, maybe it is just rant...

 

1.the motor is apart ...build it!!! (although stock is fine just replace the rod bolts w/-arp)

2.my stock ls/vtec pulls on stock R's and modded gsr's

and yes it's cheaper than an R swap

p.s. dump that ls tranny in the garbage ans get an si/gsr/itr tranny!!

 

yEPPER...

 

I will tell you like i have been told....get a b18c. it is cheaper than an ls/vtec or type r, you dont take any chances with taking apart the motor, and its smog legal if you get a motor from the same year or newer car. I was right on the edge of the CRVtec cliff and ready to jump, but smog/reliability issues pulled me away from the edge. Now im on the edge of the gsr cliff ready to jump.

 

HEY X2 well i was thinkin abotu what the last guy said maybe i shoudl jsut ge teh b18 c( gsr) engine and dump it in my car instead.. all in all at least i know if i fuc* up the engine i got my own one to use right??
ok shopping list correct anythig you feel should be corrected

b 16a head ( $600 ) this si canadian dollars mind you
type R pistons ($110 x4)
Type r manifold ($420.25) from acura
connecting rods x4 ($320.00) i should get eagle right??
shot peening rods how many do i need ( this is one part that someon said i need but i dont know wehre it is and what to do with it
Type r cams x2 ($377.37) from acura
AEM cam gears ($350)
gsr oil pump 194.00
and lastely gsr fuel pump 463.00

OK NOW what needs to be modified and or changed... especially those who have done this already what have you noticed is better etc!! thanks!!!!

 

did he say forged rods??

 

These are my suggestions/comments on the parts list:

b 16a head *Is there a diff in combustion chamber size between the ITR head and the B16 ? Keep in mind for calculation of ending CR
type R pistons ($110 x4)

Type r manifold ($420.25) from acura *ITR ecu would help too

connecting rods x4 ($320.00) i should get eagle right?? *Eagle rods will not bolt to stock honda pistons, you will need to hook up some aftermarket pistons to use the wrist pin that comes w/ Eagles
shot peening rods how many do i need ( this is one part that someon said i need but i dont know wehre it is and what to do with it *Shot peening is a process done at a machine shop. It basically shoots tiny beads at a high velocity at the metal, making it more dense... basically increases strength by about 30-40%

Type r cams x2 ($377.37) from acura *What about the CTR intake and ITR exhaust which is all the rage now ? Check on 2001 cam profiles vs. older ITR cam profiles and get the most aggressive pair.
BTW, most B16a heads are pretty old... I don't know if their valve springs will be too happy with the more aggressive profile of the ITR cam... you might want to think of upgrading the springs/retainers at the same time... or just holding off on the cams till you can do so.

AEM cam gears ($350) *Don't like the fact that the AEMs are only 3 bolts

gsr oil pump 194.00 *B20 is the same if can get the Honda one... might be cheeper

and lastely gsr fuel pump 63.00

Also, New water pump $80, timing belt $25 and MORE stuff...

X2

 

for all your michining needs go to http://www.leitnerbush.com I will be bringing my motor there too. We pretty much have the same setup (well soon to be for me).

Get the CTR Intake cam and the ITR Exhaust cam. I know someone in your area that can get them.

And don't forget the oil lines and ARP head and rod bolts!

Check out this site too for your c/r http://www.bojangs.com/calculator

good luck with the build up!