Can someone please chime in and let me know whats going on.

EDIT: blue = tuned red = untuned
Difference between 2 pulls was (BLUE)93* tonight and (RED)61* in March with the ITR Cams, Hytech header, T1R 2.5 Exhaust, and 3" SRI w/ BPI stack and K&N. New setup in June was Supertech flat face valves std. size, dual springs, oem retainers, Cometic H/G 81.5mm, Hondata IM gasket, Skunk 2 Stg 2 cams, dialed to 0/0 on the gears.

We tried + and - 5 on the timing but power was lost.
All of the midrange is gone... around ~23whp is taken away at 6500.




Modified by WheaMyRyceGo at 11:06 PM 6/25/2008

 

ok here is a question for you...

did you have the cams DEGREED when you installed them? or did you just slap them in and call it a day??


also, what was the ambient temperature/humidity for both of these dyno sessions?

 

he installed them at 0 degrees...
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I keeeeed, but im going to guesse he didn't

 

here is another question...

why are you using OEM retainers with your supertech(?) springs?

this could be a big issue with your setup...

you have aftermarket springs on OEM retainers. a lot of aftermarket retainers are designed to RAISE the installed height of the spring in order to accommodate for HIGHER LIFT cams. your S2S2 cams are 12.3mm lift. OEM springs/retainers ony allow for 11.5mm lift. so depending on what springs you are using, you probably are not even getting maximum lift from your cams (and possibly even coil binding which is BAD)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JOHN WAYNE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">here is another question...

why are you using OEM retainers with your supertech(?) springs?

this could be a big issue with your setup...

you have aftermarket springs on OEM retainers. a lot of aftermarket retainers are designed to RAISE the installed height of the spring in order to accommodate for HIGHER LIFT cams. your S2S2 cams are 12.3mm lift. OEM springs/retainers ony allow for 11.5mm lift. so depending on what springs you are using, you probably are not even getting maximum lift from your cams (and possibly even coil binding which is BAD)</TD></TR></TABLE>

I beg to differ... I run the supertech (non-flat faced) valves and supertech springs. That is with BRAND NEW OEM retainers. I have absolutely ZERO issues with it. And this is on more aggressive S2 Pro 1's.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dave_B &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I beg to differ... I run the supertech (non-flat faced) valves and supertech springs. That is with BRAND NEW OEM retainers. I have absolutely ZERO issues with it. And this is on more aggressive S2 Pro 1's.</TD></TR></TABLE>

well i am not familiar with the specs on supertech springs with OEM retainers. the key word in my comment was could...

did you measure the installed height, max lift, seat pressure, and coil bind with that setup? just asking because i dont know...and that info is probably valuable to the community.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JOHN WAYNE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

well i am not familiar with the specs on supertech springs with OEM retainers. did you ever measure the installed height, max lift, and coil bind with that setup? just asking because i dont know...and that info is probably valuable to the community.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Personally, no I didn't. When I sent the head off to be ported they assembled and measured everything for me. Then I reassembled once back at the shop. I'll see if I can contact them for all of the measurements and such.

I also contacted Supertech and Skunk with all of the measurements I could find on the web to make sure what I was doing was going to work with all of the components I installed. All of them advised there would be no issues and thus far, there have been none.

 

dont the s2s2 cams like higher compression? and you only tried + and - 5*? did you try just 1 or 2*? what are you tuning with? what is your timing set at? 93* vs 61* is a pretty big difference, but not sure if it would make THAT much difference. that fuel curve doesnt look all that great either. Is that fuel curve from the untune or tuned run?

 

http://www.team-integra.net/fo...Topic

this is actually a pretty good thread on team-integra that deals with the geometry of valvetrain.

 

I'm no dyno expert but let me ask this.

Your dyno sheet states CF:Std on it. It is my understanding that Std correction factor means the plot is a snapshot of what the motor laided down on that day and time with no adjustments made for potential changes (barometric pressure, humidity, temperature, elevation, gearing, etc)

Was the ITR cam plot also dynoed with a CF:Std? Lets make sure we're looking at apples to apples first.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RTW DC2R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">dont the s2s2 cams like higher compression? and you only tried + and - 5*? did you try just 1 or 2*? what are you tuning with? what is your timing set at? 93* vs 61* is a pretty big difference, but not sure if it would make THAT much difference. that fuel curve doesnt look all that great either. Is that fuel curve from the untune or tuned run?</TD></TR></TABLE>

i think every 10 degrees of ambient air temp is worth 1% HP or something like that.

so 30 degrees would be somewhat significant.

but as far as cam gear adjustment goes...DO NOT DO IT unless you have degreed the cams to find out what range you can safely operate in.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JOHN WAYNE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

i think every 10 degrees of ambient air temp is worth 1% HP or something like that.

so 30 degrees would be somewhat significant.

but as far as cam gear adjustment goes...DO NOT DO IT unless you have degreed the cams to find out what range you can safely operate in.</TD></TR></TABLE>

well he already tried +- 5* with no contact so I assume 1 or 2 degrees will be safe. only reason I say that is because most legit tuners will go in very small increments...and if his tuner went straight to +-5* then I might begin to question the tuner as well...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RTW DC2R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

well he already tried +- 5* with no contact so I assume 1 or 2 degrees will be safe. only reason I say that is because most legit tuners will go in very small increments...and if his tuner went straight to +-5* then I might begin to question the tuner as well...</TD></TR></TABLE>

DonF has some very good information in this thread

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=954352

 

tien, you sure have your issues with tuning and such? why not take all that money and bring it to the track?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JOHN WAYNE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

DonF has some very good information in this thread

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=954352</TD></TR></TABLE>

good info in that thread. OMG TECH!! lol

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RTW DC2R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

OMG TECH!! lol</TD></TR></TABLE>

haha yeah...the "tech" left town back around the same time that thread was made...in 2004.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JOHN WAYNE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

haha yeah...the "tech" left town back around the same time that thread was made...in 2004.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Agree'd... Makes me want to get a dial setup though.

 

Not sure about the other retainers out there, but when i measured my oem, port flow, and kms retainers..they all had the same specs.

And if thats the case, the only way that spring height can be adjusted is machine the spring seat area of the head or by shimming. Plus a valve job can mess with the spring height.

But i always like the idea of deg. the cams in...best way to start

 

you mentioned blue smoke... i spoke with jim and john and they both mentioned the same thing when they met you at the dyno in lawrence... that was before this last round of dyno tuning and mods. they both suggested that you were running rich and that should be the source of your problems... and that you were running so rich that the car crapped out the O2 sensor on the dyno. when did you have anyone mess with the ECU/tuning after you bought the car? i hope that helps. GL