I'm going to try and get my engine rebuilt this summer (97 GSR Stock) because of fried piston rings. I eventually want to race in Honda Challenge H2 and I figured, while the engine is rebuilt, I could get some other engine work done in the process that is legal for H2.

Bottom End
Pretty much stock per the rules
1mm Overbore with all new rings and bearings etc.

Head
Stock cams per the rules
Blox Intake Manifold
ARP Head Studs
Omni Power Valve Springs/Retainers
5-Angle Valve Job

Misc
Hondata s300
some gauges for oil temp/pressure and water temp
New clutch/flywheel

Based on my limited knowledge from casually reading All Motor, it seems like a pretty simple engine build. What do you guys recommend for the valve springs and retainers? I've seen Crower thrown around a lot also. Most road race motors are beat to sh*t to make power so I'll eventually be pushing up the redline a few thousand rpms from the stock 8000rpms (not right off the bat, I'll have the redline set a little lower while I'm doing HPDE's).

In addition, I can't really do the engine build myself as I'm currently daily-driving my car. When I start racing it, I'll have another car but as of now I can't afford to let it sit around for months while I rip everything out and rebuild it although I can use another car for a few weeks while it's being worked on.

Does anyone know any shops in the Cleveland/Columbus or Erie/Pittsburgh areas that does good work? I don't have tons of money but I do have a substantial amount set aside to get it done right and if the builder does good work then I'll be willing to pay whatever.

Also, how much do you think it would cost to get the engine built? I've already figured out the cost of the parts, I just want a guesstimate of labor. (Obviously, it won't be exact- I'm talking more like a guess of 500 vs 1000 vs 5000) I'd like to get an idea of how much this will all cost before I start making any plans.

Thanks for your time.

 

Cleveland/Columbus area...i'd look up PureTuning. They will be able to handle the valvejob inhouse as well. On your list of modifications to the head you can add cam gears and a 62mm throttle body(ITR). Get the bottom end balanced and blueprinted, i reccomend oem bearings. If you are only planning on just increasing the revs slightly you may be able to get away with ITR valvetrain. Also taking advantage of the .5 bump in compression in the rulebook might be of some help. As far as cost, its hard to say. For a guess on labor w/ machining i'd guesstimate anywhere from 1200-1500. Some places may cost more- some places may cost less.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MikeySpec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Cleveland/Columbus area...i'd look up PureTuning.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Any person specific or jsut the shop itself?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MikeySpec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you are only planning on just increasing the revs slightly you may be able to get away with ITR valvetrain.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have the money to do it right so I'd rather not chance it.

 

Anyone at Pure should be able to take care of you. They're really good guys. As far as the ITR valvetrain- if you are only going to be revving around the 8000-8400 range on stock gsr camshafts the ITR valvetrain will be fine. I've personally have seen less wear on oem retainers than i have on aftermarket. As far as valve springs you dont need anything more than ITR valvesprings seeing as you are on a small camshaft and mild revs.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MrDomino &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Head
Stock cams per the rules
Blox Intake Manifold
ARP Head Studs
Omni Power Valve Springs/Retainers
5-Angle Valve Job

Thanks for your time. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I have not seen good results with Omni Power valvetrain products first hand and have not heard good things either. OEM is usually good for most mild builds ITR would be fine with stock or crower steel retiners, no Ti junk. You don't need head studs, waste of avilable funds IMO. 5-angle valve jobs are good for large valve race motors where there is more real estate to work with, 3-angle is all you need, new guides always a good idea IMO. Other then that, since it has to remain pretty stock, just do a solid tight rebuild, balanced and have fun.

 

titanium retainers are lighter but will wear more quickly, if you are not capable of doing the valve jobs yourself, i would recomend staying away from them to lessen the cost down the road..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MikeySpec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Anyone at Pure should be able to take care of you. They're really good guys. As far as the ITR valvetrain- if you are only going to be revving around the 8000-8400 range on stock gsr camshafts the ITR valvetrain will be fine. I've personally have seen less wear on oem retainers than i have on aftermarket. As far as valve springs you dont need anything more than ITR valvesprings seeing as you are on a small camshaft and mild revs.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm looking for a 9000rpm redline for HPDE's and a 10,000rpm redline for racing...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by heel_touge &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">titanium retainers are lighter but will wear more quickly, if you are not capable of doing the valve jobs yourself, i would recomend staying away from them to lessen the cost down the road..</TD></TR></TABLE>

How fast do they typically wear? Within a year or so I should have the facilities to do the engine work and I'm going to try and learn how to do the valve train later this summer....

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FST GSR 1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You don't need head studs, waste of avilable funds IMO. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Anyone else agree with this? I would think that new head studs would be kind of important? I mean, I really don't know enough to disagree with you it just sounds counterintuitive to me.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MrDomino &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I'm looking for a 9000rpm redline for HPDE's and a 10,000rpm redline for racing...</TD></TR></TABLE>

What cam are you going to run for that type of action? GSR and ITR cams don't make power up there. You'll just be wearing out your motor.

Why not shoot for 200 whp with ITR cams. The motor will last a lot longer and you'll have more usaeble power.

Yes, I would use headstuds on the rebuild.

 

I'm stuck with stock cams as per Honda Challenge rules.

Where am I going to start losing power on a GSR motor w/ stock cams?

 

Like mar778c said, with stock cams, there is no reason to rev that high and you will be rebuilding it sooner..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MrDomino &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm stuck with stock cams as per Honda Challenge rules.

Where am I going to start losing power on a GSR motor w/ stock cams?</TD></TR></TABLE>

8,000 rpm(if you're lucky)

Dont strain out the motor, there really is no reason to. You can play with the usable powerband with gearing/tire size. I'd limit the car to 8500. I have 2 H2 cars that i work on and i limit them both to 8800 rpm- and they are ITR engine'd.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MikeySpec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

8,000 rpm(if you're lucky)

Dont strain out the motor, there really is no reason to. You can play with the usable powerband with gearing/tire size. I'd limit the car to 8500. I have 2 H2 cars that i work on and i limit them both to 8800 rpm- and they are ITR engine'd.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Is the C1 good for H2? I'm obviously nowhere near being race ready (I'm going to start doing HPDE's like crazy after I get a healthy engine) but I don't want to spend all the money to rebuild the engine if it's never going to be competitive in the future....

 

H2 is a power/weight class. The engine will dictate the weight of your car. The C1 is a 2400pound engine. With the right tricks and setup you will can make decent power. Although, power should be the least of your worries.

 

If you're just starting HPDe's hold off on the HC build. Just freshen the engine up if it needs it. Rules will change before you're ready to race. If you build a daily for HC, it will be unsafe on the street or uncompetitive on the track depending which side you play to.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Aquafina &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you're just starting HPDe's hold off on the HC build. Just freshen the engine up if it needs it. Rules will change before you're ready to race. If you build a daily for HC, it will be unsafe on the street or uncompetitive on the track depending which side you play to.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I guess that makes sense, should I throw Hondata on there when I get the rebuild? Is it really necessary for an engine with just an ITR valve train?

btw the car is no longer going to be a daily driver once its race-ready.

Out of curiosity, what would make a HC racecar unsafe for street use? I know it wouldn't be a comfortable car by any means but what exactly would make it unsafe?

 

Suspension. Hit a slight bump in a turn and you'll spin.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Aquafina &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Suspension. Hit a slight bump in a turn and you'll spin.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That and the cage, get into a wreck on the street and your head can/will meet your cage. I don't think that you are going to be driving around the streets with a helmet on

 

Alright, I think I'm reducing it down to:

Bottom End
1mm Overbore and new bearings

Head
new studs
ITR valve springs (I just want some extra protection)

Would/should I get new valves (GSR) and retainers (ITR)? The engine has 140k on it and most likely has been driven hard most of those miles. In addition, anything I need to check with the camshafts?

You guys are right about waiting until I'm actually ready to race to make major mods. I'm going to skip all of the additional headwork. Just new valve springs and whatever else (retainers/guides/seals if needed).

Thanks for the help!

 

Unless you're ready to race right now, there's no sense in building an engine to the limit of H2 rules, as the rules change every year. It would suck to spend a lot of money building an engine to the limit of the rules only to do HPDEs for a year or so then when you're ready to race, the engine is illegal because of rule changes.

As for a race car on the street, I personally would not do it. I know people that do it, but my race car is loud, stiff, and lacks all the creature comforts of a street legal car. Not to mention that I don't want to put that many miles on the suspension, engine, etc.

I'd concentrate on getting seat time, and getting the car sorted suspension/handling-wise. Have you figured out the cost to build the car, safety equipment, and what it'll cost per weekend to race? An SFI approved H&N restraint will be required this year as well. I use a HANS myself, as do most of the people I know.

 

Yeah, I think I'm going to stick with a basic rebuild.

No, I really don't have a concrete figure on how much it is going to cost to build the car. I have ideas about suspension and all kinds of little bits and pieces (bushings, etc.).

I'm really trying to save some money so in a year or so I can take the winter and do the entire suspension (spherical bushings, swaybars, race coilovers, etc.) and get the car caged but only after I have a new daily driver (should be getting a new daily driver next summer). Right now I'm just trying to get the engine in shape for some HPDE's.

I've heard that it costs around 800-1000/weekend to race depending on how fast you burn through tires and brakes, etc.

Is the HANS required for HPDE? If it isn't, that's something I'll buy when I'm closer to being ready to race. Safety equipment expires so I really don't want to spend the money to buy a HANS device and have it expire by the time I'm ready to use it.

I guess I sort of lost track of the point I was trying to make. I was really wondering if, while the engine is apart, there was anything other than a basic rebuild that I should do but from your answers I've decided I'm just going to get the engine running good with a stock setup plus some new ITR valve springs for added security.

Based on experience, is the engine going to need the 1mm overbore to clean up the cylinder walls?

I'm guessing (rough estimates) it's going to cost me around 2000 for driver suit and safety equipment, 3000 for the suspension (koni race coilovers, spherical bushings), 1000 for LSD, 2000 for a cage, etc. I know it's going to be a large investment but it's really worth it to me to be able to race wheel-to-wheel. But, for now, I'm going to keep everything pretty much stock for HPDE's with the exception of the of some lowering springs and tokico shocks and a new ACT clutch and flywheel.

 

The answer to most of your road racing question can be found in that forum.

As for your engine related question, I recommend a basic short block rebuild, valve job, ITR valvetrain cams etc, and a good I/H/E. You can get 190~200 whp 130+ tq.

With 140K, you will probably need a bore and hone.

GL

 

That's likely a good idea, although there are some things you can do that will cost little extra, but help in the long run like a good valve job, valve guides (if the engine needs it), the overbore you referred to, having everything balanced, etc.

That figure is about right. Depends on the event. The farther you tow, the more expensive it becomes, obviously.

HANS is not required, and most HPDE participants I've met do not use one. I didn't not use one for the 3 or 4 years I was doing HPDEs. You just have to weigh the risk vs. benefit ratio. Even if it wasn't required in my region, I'd likely still run one (I'm referring to the race classes), as my life is worth it IMO.

The main thing is (and I can't stress this enough) is to get a reliable rebuild. I was chasing so many problems a year or so ago that I almost gave up and sold the car. Every weekend something was breaking or causing issues, that I probably went an entire year before I had a good clean problem-free weekend.

There's nothing wrong with doing a few extras like I mentioned before when doing your build, but don't go crazy, and especially don't go over budget.

One thing I forgot to mention is that a programmable ECU can make a big difference, even on a relatively stock H2 engine build.

It most likely won't need to be bored that large just to clean up the cylinder walls. I'd probably bore it as large as the largest Honda piston made for your engine.

Depending on the level of equipment you buy, your costs could be reasonable. I tend to buy mid-range safety equipment, as I think it's money well spent, although some will argue that they all meet the minimum standards, so even if you "cheap out" you'll still end up with fairly good equipment. I usually don't buy super high end stuff like Stand21, etc. I spent closer to $3k for safety equipment like driver's suit, gloves, shoes, base layer, helmet, and HANS device. $3k for suspension sounds fair if you go with Koni race-revalved Sports. That won't be enough to go with Koni's race shocks like 3011s or 2812s. I'm not sure how much sphericals cost, as I had to do a bunch of custom work on my car for sphericals, but I know Progress makes some off the shelf sphericals for your car. That'll likely save you a lot of money.

I certainly think you're going in the right direction. It's an eye opener how much all the stuff costs!

BTW, I think your estimate for the cage is rather low, unless you're looking at a very basic weld in custom cage.

Too bad you're not in Texas. It sure would be nice to have another Honda out there!


Modified by 117 at 12:01 PM 6/1/2008

 

I'm interested in what pistons you were going to use. You say 1mm overbore, but dont they have to be oem weight/material/dish design? I was going this route, but cant find oem spec GSR pistons in an OS size. I'm currently building an H3 and H2 setup while I do my HPDE's, so this info would be greatly appreciated.

Edit: Dealers have OS pistons but I still have yet to find 82mm


Modified by guymosiris at 1:41 PM 6/5/2008

 

Honda only makes them .25 over