Just started building my 2nd manifold. This one will be a lot better than my first effort. Fully argon back purged, collector welded inside and out.






Modified by rorik at 8:20 PM 1/28/2008


Modified by rorik at 8:02 PM 2/4/2008

 

i'm no expert but it looks like the weld for the collector to flange is either a little too hot or just contaminated since it doesn't look like you cleaned the pipe one bit.

edit - it's not just the flange that looks like that, the collector as well.

i bet if you wirewheeled it first it would come out alot nicer.

 

Well, it is somewhat of an illusion, the colors are all off in the pic. I did wire wheel all the connections be fore welding them. There is no contamination. Another thing about the color is I took the pic when the piece was still really hot, too.

 

There is alot of contamination there , look around the flange where there are the brownish marks from the tungsten comming in contact with the puddle during welding clean it better next time and turn the heat down alot.

 

yeah, I hit the filler with the tip. Damn shaky hand. I'll clean it off a little with a scotch brite pad and it'll look fine though. As far as the heat, I used enough heat to just barely get through. How do you get that penetration without heat?

 

Overall I think it looks really nice, I am impressed with the passes you did inside the collector and it looks pretty consistent. Just need to work on your heat and gas coverage. Keep it up!

 

yeah...from the distance it appears as if your consistency is descent, but like everyone else said...too hot and/or poor gas coverage. The material doesn't look adequately cleaned either. The inside weld is pretty good though. Just next time you dip, make sure you stop and clean everything up.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rorik &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yeah, I hit the filler with the tip. Damn shaky hand. I'll clean it off a little with a scotch brite pad and it'll look fine though. As far as the heat, I used enough heat to just barely get through. How do you get that penetration without heat?</TD></TR></TABLE>

It all about speed and heat you will learn in time

 

Well, the stuff on the surface did look kind of crappy, but it's all clean and shiny now. I just scrubbed it off in my kitchen sink for a few minutes. I think what caused that was me hitting the filler rod with the tip, I don't think I actually hit the collector metal itself. So then I just quickly resharpened the tungsten and kept going. I suppose I should have cleaned up the metal there, but the stuff did come off pretty easily. I really hate my torch, it's cumbersome as hell, and hard to hold. As far as the heat thing though, I don't really get what I'm doing wrong, or should be doing instead. First, everyone says to use enough heat to get through the metal, then they say its too hot. You could go slower with less pedal, but it seems like that would still put the same amount of heat into the metal, since you're holding the heat there longer. It still has to get to that same temp for the bead to flow and melt together, what am I missing? One thing I've noticed I've started to do almost subconsciously is push the pedal up and down while I'm welding, instead of just trying to find the perfect position for it. That seems to put less heat into the metal overall, is that what you guys are talking about? And another thing, when I welded the outside, the inside was mostly melted together, but you could still see some of the edges where the pieces intersected. That's why I went over the inside. I didn't really think it was necessary, I just thought it would be kind of cool to do. I really kept the heat down, but I noticed that once I was done, the outsides of the collector had definitely taken on a darker color. That's what you guys were also commenting on too. I really don't care personally, because I know the first time you drive the car, they're going to look like that anyway, but since you guys don't like it, how do you avoid it?
And lastly, how exactly do you guys prep the metal? I hit the edges pretty hard with a wire wheel on my grinder, and you guys still say "it doesn't look like I cleaned the pipe one bit". Should I use sandpaper then? Like a flap disk on the grinder?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rorik &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
And lastly, how exactly do you guys prep the metal? I hit the edges pretty hard with a wire wheel on my grinder, and you guys still say "it doesn't look like I cleaned the pipe one bit". Should I use sandpaper then? Like a flap disk on the grinder?</TD></TR></TABLE>

i just built my first collector so i'm no pro but i bought one of those large wire wheels that goes onto the bench grinder, it quickly did away with all the crap over the pipe, when i was done the pipe was very, very shiny. i think the wire wheel on the bench grinder also makes it easier to clean the entire length of pipe very quickly.

 

Not bad.

 

Nice work.

 

when i weld a collector up i set the machine at 100 amps and use the pedal to control the heat i'm puting in the meterial. and i only move about 1/2"-1" depending on where i'm at in the weld i'm at. the cooler the metal the farther i can travel and still get good coverage.

now onto the flange, when i weld them to the collector i set the machine at about 130 amps and again work the pedal to control the heat.

i also use a 3/32 filler rod and move about a 1/2" at a time leting the peice cool for a sec inbetween runs.

now this hole time i'm at about 18-25 cfm gas flow with a 10+ sec post flow. keep working on the gas coverage and keeping the work peice from heat soaking and it should start to come to you faster and faster.

keep it up

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rorik &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...As far as the heat thing though, I don't really get what I'm doing wrong, or should be doing instead. First, everyone says to use enough heat to get through the metal, then they say its too hot. You could go slower with less pedal, but it seems like that would still put the same amount of heat into the metal, since you're holding the heat there longer. It still has to get to that same temp for the bead to flow and melt together, what am I missing?...</TD></TR></TABLE>

The deal is that several things are at work and you have to balance them. You need enough heat for penetration, but at the same time the gas and filler is cooling the puddle. The key is to have enough heat to penetrate, but not go so slow that it overheats everything.

If you have enough heat to get penetration, then the gas and addition of filler keeps it cool enough is what I'm saying. So yes, essentially you either have to move faster or use less heat....or the pulse control, which really helps.

 

Thanks for all your guys' comments.
I think I should reiterate that when I welded the inside, the outside got just hot enough to change the appearance. It had a cleaner, shinier, less faded, lighter appearance before I did the inside. I think that's a big part of why you guys are thinking I used too much heat. So I don't know if I really did or not. ? I don't think the metal got hot enough on the outside to require the air to be replaced with argon, because I'm pretty sure that exhaust could get it just as hot. It was just a dull red.

91jdmhatchback, everything you wrote was basically how I did it, except I was using 1/16 rod. That heat soaking thing is definitely something I'm paying attention to now, on my first manifold I warped the turbo flange, f that. (Although it was easier to warp, being you have to weld the divider with the twinscroll) On my other manifold, I also ended up with the head flange being twisted a little. So I clamped it down on my table and carefully heated the whole thing until it was red with a giant propane torch a few times, then it was basically straight. I couldn't believe it actually worked.

 

A bit hot on heat or not sufficient shielding. Good job, practice makes perfect.

 

Well, it's all starting to make sense how to do this **** finally, thanks for your guys' tips, and I definitely see a few things I didn't get before. One is that the heat discoloration is caused by moving the shielding gas (torch) away too quickly, not giving the area time to cool enough before it is exposed to the air, in other words, I was trying to go too fast. To bad I haven't figured out how to fix my shaky hands though, other than by drinking beer. I have no idea why, but for some reason that totally eliminates the shaky hands. Unfortunately I was totally alcohol free when I was working on this..but I'm still not done with it yet..
Anyway, I have another question for you guys, where should I put the wastegate, the side or the front? I have a 44mm tial flange. It really sucks that I don't have a chassis to test fit this in, I can't use it in my stupid old accord because of a giant crossmember right in the way. I just kind of copied the basic dimensions from pictures I've seen, and from what my memory of an integra/civic bay is. I'm willing to bet it will fit the typical integra/civic fine, what do you guys think?

 

Shaky hands can be fixed by resting them on something. You should really wire wheel all the pipe, it looks so much better when you do .

 

I just bought this thing for my die grinder that holds these little pads, I'll use that to clean it up..

 

Id rock that manifold. good job!

 

Looks great , I SEE IMPROVEMENT!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rorik &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I just bought this thing for my die grinder that holds these little pads, I'll use that to clean it up..</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sooner or later invest in a bench grinder, trust me it will make the manifold look a lot better

 

still hot on the butt welds. Try skidding or walking the cup to fix your shaky hands.

If your heat is set right you should be able to weld the pipe in 1/4s not 1/2in at a time. That must take you guys freakin forever to weld that way geez.

 

Well, it's all done. Keep in mind this is only the second thing I've made with my tig welder..I'm pretty proud of myself, lol. I'm still learning, but I've learned so much on this manifold, it's crazy. I learned how to control the heat by cycling the pedal up and down, how to prep the metal, how to not move the torch away from the hot area too quickly exposing the still hot area to the air, which is why a lot of you guys said it looked too hot, I learned how to tack and weld without warpage, and how to backpurge legitimately so you can see bead on the inside. My next manifold will probably be a ramhorn. As far as the heat control thing, the pic of the wastegate flange to the tube shows how much I learned on that. I had no idea how to do that before. As far as the shinyness in the top view pics, I wasn't trying to polish anything, lol, I was just testing out this thing I bought for my die grinder. It's a little rotary pad thing, it looks like a scotch brite pad on a little disk.

Since I can't use this on my project car, (old accord hatch) thanks to crossmembers in the way of the turbo, it's going up for sale on ebay.