Need some help from the Accord folks. I'm vastly familiar with the Civic forums, B18's, K20's, but my father has a 1991 Accord LX. It's got just over 100,000 on the ticker. He had Honda do the belt a while ago, he's not sure how long. Obviously miles aren't the issue here, time is. The tires get dry rotted and so do the belts. Well, the other day Dad advised me the car got hot. He said, 'I noticed it when it was on 'H'". Well, turns out the water pump is leaking. No big deal. Here's the problem. When Honda did the timing belt they didn't tighten the tensioner for the timing belt or it just came loose. Long story short I've got the motor torn apart, done a leak down check and cylinder numbers 2,3 and 4 are losing compression on exhaust valves, so those are bent. It doesn't sound bad, but they are definitely leaking. I do have some blow by on the rings as well, but I'm not sure how severe it is because I wasn't able to do a compression check. It doesn't sound severe, I'm just going off the leak down test. Well, dad wants to keep the automatic (blah), so does anyone have suggestions. The head is glazed with oil (because it got hot) and I've got the valve train apart and soaking in carb cleaner. I've noticed some scoring on a few of the rockers. I was thinking of a rebuilt head, but I don't know of the cost. This way I won't have to worry about valve guides, warped head, etc. The other scenario would be to get a JDM engine and swap it in, but I'd want to freshen it up as well. Finally, I could just use what I have and cross my fingers. I could put in some valves, fresh gaskets, belts, etc. Any suggestions based on experience? Prelude swap? I'm not looking for power, but something extra would be nice if I'm doing it anyway. Remember this is just a car for the old man. I've even mentioned to him trading for a 2002 and up used Accord. If it's only going to be about 600-700 he's keeping this one, if it's $2000 and up he'd probably go with some other option. Thanks in advance for all your help.

 

Well the motor is a interference engine, so for the timing belt to get all gunked up like that and to see the WP was leaking, and the scoring on the other parts.

It'd either be find a replacement F23/F22 and drop it in.

OR you could do an H23/H22 swap.

For him I'd probably just snag a used F22/F23 and drop it in, I sold mine with 200k on it for like $200 so you should easily be able to find a 100-150k mile one for $400 and if you can drop it in yourself you'd be golden.

Hope that helps.

 

ive got an h22 head that would work great on that motor

 

So you're certain the belt slipped some teeth on the sprocket and that you had valve to piston contact? Have you actually checked that the valves are bent?

There are at least two ways to check for bent valves. The first is to put the valves in a lathe (or power drill at a pinch) and spin them looking for the slightest signs of runout. This isn't as accurate as the second method as follows:

The second is to 'blue' them, i.e. using 'engineers blue' (a blue colored paste) smear the seat on the valve with the 'blue' and fit the valve into the appropriate valve guide (not all the way to the seat, about 1/2" off), then 'pop' the valve sharply against the head seat so that the valve hits and bounces off slightly. Now extract the valve and look carefully at the valve seats both on the valve and the head.

You should be able to see where the valve has contacted the head seat by the manner in which the 'blue' has been squeezed out from between the seat surfaces. If you can see evidence of the 'blue' being squeezed out all around the seat then the valve is straight.

The only other thing that will cause uneven 'squeezing' of the blue is an area of burning on the edge of the valve's seat. If you don't have 'blue' or can't get it then light grease can also be used, it's just thatn 'blue' s convenient because of it's color and is the traditionally used substance.

 

Third way, leak down test. Thanks for the advice, but the leak down test is the easiest, I can do it in the motor without taking things apart.

 

pull the flippin head off, you already have the cam/valve train off; tip the head on the side and fill the intake/exhaust holes with solvent and watch for the leak inside the head, replace whatever valves puke out solvent. Lap them in and put the head back on.
6 hours work and your done. sheesh

 

I had the impression you already had the motor apart.

Compression test will tell you if you have a significant compression leak. First do an inital compression check to verify any low compression, then squirt a few CCs of oil in the cylinder and wait a little for it to flow onto the rings (helps temporarily seal dodgy rings). Now recheck compression, if it's back up then its the rings that are leaking, if no difference then the valves are leaking.

Do this one cylinder at a time, i.e. don't put oil in all four at once, by the time you get to checking the last one the oil may have drained from the rings.

 

I have the cam off and I'm putting air pressure to the cylinder. The valves should be closed (no cam) so the leaking I have is from the exhaust valves since air is coming out of the exhaust manifold. Moving from cylinder to cylinder I can check each set of valves. I know 2,3 and 4 have bent valves, but I was just wondering if it's better to get a recondition head (some where) as opposed to doing this myself. Not to mention that dad got things nice and hot, so the potential for further damage is there.

 

I can't do a compression test, remember the timing belt is broken. Thanks for the thought though.

 

OK, it does seem the valves are bent. You have three choices, rebuild, replace with rebuilt, or replace second hand. You need to research costs before you can move forward depending on the depth of your pocket.

I'd be surprised if an exchange head would cost more than rebuilding your existing one, and since you know for fact that your existing head has been severely overheated I'd suggest an exchange head, pursuant (there's a good word!) to properly researching costs.

 

Check out http://www.car-parts.com for heads or even an entire engine to just drop in. Great website, which search junk yards in your area or wherever you like.

 

Thanks for the Car-part.com, I use it everyday in my job as a body shop manager. I'm simply asking if anyone has had experience with 'rebuild', replace used, or replace remanufactured?

 

I'm sure plenty of people have experience with these options, but it's rather irrelevant. Having your head rebuilt is a good option, so is an exchange head, so long as the head castings have been checked for cracks in both cases. A second hand head is obviously something of a lucky dip, but no matter what it's nor new, which properly rebuilt heads effectively are. You're only decision is how much do you want tp pay...

 

You can more than likely find another head less than 100 bucks at the junkyard. Or you can get a new motor like off of ebay or hmotorsonline.com for around 600 bucks and 40-50k. If your looking for a dohc its like 800-1000 for a complete swap.

 

I just ordered a F22B (160hp/148lb.ft.) from TigerJapanese.com. With transmission and all it only ran $845 shipped from Canada. I had a friend who got a transmission from them for his toyota camry and had no problems. Should be here in a week or so and I'll freshen things up prior to putting it in. The motors come with 25-35,000 on them. I'll keep you guys posted to let you know about my experience with them. Now dad will have an extra transmission, alternator, distributor, etc. laying around should something happen. The increase in power from 125hp/137lb.ft. should be a nice change for him as well. He always commented on mom's 96 Accord with the V6 and how he liked the power/torque more. Sure, he'll have to get it spinning, but the power will be there, well, more so than before. They had just the motor for $100 less, but why not have a back up trans for $100. The modules on the trans run about $150 each. I'll just put the entire swap in and save dad's known good trans should something happen. As I said I'll keep you guys updated on the progress for future reference and let you know my experience. Thanks for your constructive help. Oh, forgot to mention...I pulled one piston/rod assembly out to see how things looked since I had it this far apart. The rod bearings were scored and the oil rings looked somewhat seized. With that in mind doing just the upper half of the motor was not the right thing to do, so a used motor seems to be the best option. Finally the $200 TigerJapanese charged me for freight seems great considering I'm in Florida. Okay, keep you posted.

 

Hey buttafucco, when is that engine coming in?

 

Dad's 91 Accord LX with the F22A1 took a dump so I got an F22B for $650 with transmission. I would like to freshen things up before I put it in. What U.S. vehicle can I refer to for timing belt, water pump, seals, etc. for this engine. I manage a body shop and get parts at cost, so buying them from my local Honda rep. would be great for me. Do I just refer to the H22 for parts?

Thanks in advance.

 

Anyone?

 

After lots of searching I found some info for the swap. I don't have the thread right now and will repost it if I come across it. I've got the motor torn down (intake, exhaust, accessories) and found some surprises. I did a compression check. compression is running 230-240 on all four. I did a leak down test and had exhaust leaks from 2,3 and 4. The head (at the runners) was filthy. The intake manifold was loaded with oil as well. I found the pcv valve to be in poor condition, so this would be the cause of all the oil. I'm in the process of cleaning things up. I'm suspecting that all the oil (carbon) may be built up on the valves causing them not to seal completely. I'm going to disassemble the intake manifold and hot dip it to clean it up. Keep you updated.

 

so, are you trying to see if you can salvage the old engine? or is that the new engine?

 

It's allegedly a JDM engine with 30-40,000 on it. Looks like the PCV valve was stuck open for some time and it's loaded the intake with oil residue. I'm going to hop dip it in order to clean everything up. I've got the runners on the head fairly clean to this point. I just got some service parts in and I've got to make some time to work on it.

 

Just sent out the head, valve cover, cams and intake manifold for cleaning. I've done the rest of the cleaning to the valves and bottom end. The guy is charging me $50 for the cleaning. It's worth it. The excessive carbon build up and oil residue is extreme. I'll let you know how it comes out. I used Dad's 1991 oil pan on the F22B. It's exactly the same. So, the bottom end is clean and I'm waiting on a head gasket. I've got new valve seals already and I've already put in a new front main seal and balance shaft seal. I'm still waiting on the tensioner pulleys. Hopefully by the weekend I'll have the long block assembled and then I can work on the intake manifold. Keep you posted.

 

I just got things running. I went through some distributor issues, see this link: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2245827
Anyway, she's finally running. I needed to use the pickups in the dizzy from the F22 and not the Accord's. I'm not sure why, but it works now. Also had a bad coil. In switching guts from one dizzy to the next I put the rotor 180 degrees out. The fork that goes on the end of the dizzy, you know the one that goes in the cam, well, when I put it on the dizzy I was 180 out. O.K., so now she runs. I've got a ton of work yet to do. I've manufactured an exhaust for it. I used the stock header where it was cut and made an intermediate pipe to match up with dad's exhaust. I've got to bleed the coolant, double check the trans fluid, hook up my IAB wires, check out this link for that info: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2237410
Once that stuff is done I'll give her a test drive. Keep you guys updated. Thanks again for all the help thus far. Oh, had dinner with Dad last night and he said, perhaps he should have just gotten another car.....great. O.K. on to more work. Keep you posted.