So I got my car (96 civic) aligned for the first time since I bought it today. Everything was in spec except for the rear camber, which I figured would be, and the rear toe. The suspension is basically stock except for s2 springs.

My question is, what could cause the toe being off, and is it off enough for me to really worry about it. Also should I get a camber kit for the rear.



Here is the new alignment. they got the toe in spec, but barely. They said thats as close as they could get because of the drop. Oh well at least its in spec.




Modified by GeorgiaSTi06 at 3:44 PM 11/1/2007

 

Toe is the angle at which the tire is angled in or out from the center of the car when you look at it from above. Toe could be off for a number of reasons, but it's very important that toe is corrected.

Both your measurements for camber are bad. There is no factory adjustment for camber, although you can get a couple of washers and do a DIY camber kit on the rear. It's very easy and cost-effective, only downside is having to take out the bolts if angle is incorrect. You might have to buy longer bolts, also. The rear camber is far enough off that I would be concerned about it. The front is a little too far in, but I wouldn't be too concerned about it if you bump up the air pressure in the front tires a couple of pounds. There are adjustable ball joints available so you can correct the front, but the toe would be your main concern.

Did you pay for a 4 wheel alignment? If so, take that **** back and make them clean up the rear toe. That's not where you want it.

 

don't worry about you rear camber, it is fine.


As for the toe:

Toe and camber both change when you change ride height.

The alignment shop, it looks like, took the easy route and only worried about thrust angle. As evident by your left toe being zero intially and them changing it to match the right side. This isn't very good for a 2 reason, A: each side individually is out of spec B: they should have just brought the right side to zero to give you zero on each side and zero thrust angle.

I'd go back and ask them to set it to ZERO all around on each wheel.

 

The guy behind the counter said there is "probably" something damaged, but was not specific. Should the alignment shop tell me what the problem is or is it not there responsibility. And if something is damaged where should I start looking.

Thanks for the help.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GeorgiaSTi06 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The suspension is basically stock except for s2 springs.</TD></TR></TABLE>

thats your answer. EVERYTIME you install springs, or change ride height at all, you need to realign your car.

your rear camber is ok. its typical of EK's because of the longer rear LCA. (just look at the huge OEM spec range!) you can get some cheap shim kit. but then you have to realign.

since you fixed the toe, you shouldnt see much uneven tire wear now anyway. so personally, i wouldnt bother. (edit: oops, they didnt quite align the rear properly, get them to fix it and shim the rears if they really want.)

theres nothing damaged on your car.

 

So did he tell you they couldn't get the rear within spec? If you know where the toe compensator arm is on the rear trailing arms, look underneath and see if the passenger side rear compensator arm has the bolt pushed all the way as far as it will go towards the outside of the car (away from the longitudinal centerline of the car). If that is the case so that they can't get the toe within spec, then the frame is bent or twisted somewhere, most likely from previous collision damage.

 

i dunno. EK's just might not have that proper range of adjustment in the rear. might just run out when you slam it too much. i dunno. its obviously supposed to have a bit of rear toe in anyway. but now that car is in the upper range of the that toe curve as the ride height is lower.

but i dunno EK's. anyone else with an ek sucessfully get a reasonable amount of toe in while dumped?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i dunno. EK's just might not have that proper range of adjustment in the rear. might just run out when you slam it too much. i dunno. its obviously supposed to have a bit of rear toe in anyway. but now that car is in the upper range of the that toe curve as the ride height is lower.

but i dunno EK's. anyone else with an ek sucessfully get a reasonable amount of toe in while dumped?</TD></TR></TABLE>

But his rear trailing arms were both on the opposite ends of the specified range. They moved the left compensator arm towards the center of the car to get from 0 to 0.15 toe in. Ideally they would have moved it less and put it between .05 and 0.10. The right compensator arm would have needed to move further to the right, away from the centerline of the car. But if it's already the furthest it can go to the right, and the left side wasn't all the way at the far left (which it wasn't because they must have moved it some to the right to adjust it), then I think the frame has been tweaked somehow.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PatrickGSR94 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

But his rear trailing arms were both on the opposite ends of the specified range. They moved the left compensator arm towards the center of the car to get from 0 to 0.15 toe in. Ideally they would have moved it less and put it between .05 and 0.10. The right compensator arm would have needed to move further to the right, away from the centerline of the car. But if it's already the furthest it can go to the right, and the left side wasn't all the way at the far left (which it wasn't because they must have moved it some to the right to adjust it), then I think the frame has been tweaked somehow.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Do you think the tech would of been able to see the problem while adjusting it? I'm going back there tomorrow and ask why the toe couldn't spec out. Hopefully it was just a lazy tech and they can get it in range.

 

Unless there is a major frame problem, it's probably not visible to the naked eye. Usually a car has to be put on a frame straightening machine, and then the tech refers to something like a Helms manual that shows diagrams of measurements between numerous different points on the car, like distances between bolt hole centers, orientation angles of certain pieces, etc. Those measurements can be taken with the car on the frame machine and then compared to the factory measurements.

If it's not possible to get the right side toe in any less than 0.15 then I'm willing to bet that's the problem.

Or it could be just a bent suspension arm throwing it off (trailing arm, LCA, etc).

 

i really dont think the frame is bent.

the camber is nearly equal on both sides. if there was damage, itd be more than just the toe that couldnt be correctable.

just go back and ask them to just get the rear toe back in line.

 

New alignment sheet in first post. Toe is in spec but barely.

 

Something seems fishy, since the before specs on the 2nd alignment seem way off from the after specs of the first alignment. I wonder if they didn't jounce the car after getting into position on the alignment machine before each alignment was performed.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PatrickGSR94 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Something seems fishy, since the before specs on the 2nd alignment seem way off from the after specs of the first alignment. I wonder if they didn't jounce the car after getting into position on the alignment machine before each alignment was performed.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yea I noticed that too after I got home. I won't be going back to this shop again. BTW what does jounce the car mean.

 

jounce, bounce, whatever, just pushing or pulling each end of the car up and down to help settle the suspension. Helps ensure that none of the angles are thrown off due to the way the tires might be sitting or something (think about how there's more fender gap when you lower your car off a jack until you roll it or maybe bounce on the front of the car).

 

the tires should be on a slip plate on an alignment rack. the ride height doesnt change either since the work is done at level ground and not jacked up. that shouldnt matter.

btw, i think your car is fine now. enjoy.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the tires should be on a slip plate on an alignment rack. the ride height doesnt change either since the work is done at level ground and not jacked up. that shouldnt matter.

btw, i think your car is fine now. enjoy.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yea the car dives way better now. Thanks for all the help everybody.