Hello Folks,

This is my first post and I hope I don't sound too much like a noob, even though that's exactly what I am.

I have an 86 Accord LX-i 4-cyl. with 145K miles. It has had all the symptoms of a bad main relay (mainly, it won't start once it's warmed up, runs rough). We replaced the main relay, and the problem persisted. I got a sweet deal on a brand new distributor and, thinking that it might be the ICM, I replaced the distributor. it ran a little better, but still wouldn't start when warm.

I have checked the new relay for continuity per the Haynes manual, it's OK. When I turn the key, I do hear a couple of clicks from the relay, so power seems to be there.

Per the manual, I decided to check for power at the fuel pump. After finding and disconnecting it, I don't see power at the fuel pump, either by putting a voltmeter on the leads to the pump and turning the key, or by running jumpers from the battery directly to the fuel pump (can't hear it running, at least, mebbe it's just real quiet?).

I hooked it all back together, now the car won't start, hot OR cold

Is there a fuse for the fuel pump that I might have blown? If so, where is it?

What's my best next move? Pull the pump? I haven't checked the coil as yet (since it doesn't die while driving), though I did make sure that the juice is reaching the plugs.

Are there any other components that cause similar symptoms?

BTW, awhile ago, the OBD-1 was reading a DTC 6, so we replaced the coolant temp sensor. The code is gone, but the fan seems to run too much after turnign the key or running (like for a half hour, even if it's cold).

Also, back when it did run, there were a number of very audible kind of odd "gulp" noises coming from under the hood, like some flap in the intake was cycling at random.

I don't know if those issues are important, just thought I'd mention them.

Mainly, I'd just like to get it to run again.

Thanks for any help you all can offer. I appreciate it.

Huckleberry

 

Update: I got it to start. I found a blown fuse, generally monkeyed around until it started, though it still would not re-start warm.

The gulping noise appears to be coming from the Idle Control Box. I haven't figured out how to get in there yet. Even less idea of what to do if I do get in.

The fan stills runs and runs, no clue there, either, though now I know what fuse to pull to make stop.

Huckleberry

 

The continuous fan running may be due to a bad cooling fan timer. This link will help you with that problem, and maybe one or two more of your problems.

http://techauto.bravehost.com/

 

Thanks, Tech8

The cooling fan timer does appear to be bad. I'll replace that, but I still have the orginal BIG problem which is:

My 86 Accord won't start when warm. I have replaced the Main Relay with a new one and checked the new relay to be sure it's ok.

I have checked the fuel pump. I can hear it running when I turn the key.

I have replaced the old distributor with a brand new one (That also replaces the ignitor and ICM, right?)

I even tried packing the coil in ice to see if that would make it possible to re-start it when warm. No joy.

I took readings with a multimeter on the coil also. I couldn't make complete sense of the readings, but they appeared to be about right.

Before I just swap out the coil, are there any other places or components I should check?

Thanks again,

Huckleberry

 

Change the cooling fan timer first. Since your problems are heat related.

The continuously running cooling fan problem became a Catch-22 situation; if you didn't let the fans cool the engine sufficiently, then you may be getting heat soak and causing other problems; but, if you didn't pull the fuse to shut off the fan, it would keep running and drain the battery...or you had to wait around and then pull the fuse...

 

Have you tried checking for spark when trying to start when hot? What about fuel pressure readings when trying to start hot? I would check these before spending anymore money.

Additionally, when the car is cold, it runs in open loop, bypassing some emissions and using a preprogrammed ECU map. When its hot, the ECU enters closed loop and starts adjusting the engine based on different sensors and the emissions systems are used to control the emission output level. Might try squirting some starting fluid in the TB when its hoty to see if ity will start on that.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tech8 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Change the cooling fan timer first. Since your problems are heat related.

The continuously running cooling fan problem became a Catch-22 situation; if you didn't let the fans cool the engine sufficiently, then you may be getting heat soak and causing other problems; but, if you didn't pull the fuse to shut off the fan, it would keep running and drain the battery...or you had to wait around and then pull the fuse...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, the fan kicks on at what seems like the right time, it just won't shut off in less than 20 minutes or more. Also, even if you just start the car briefly (like a few seconds), the cooling fan still runs and runs. Is there more than one temp sensor (like one that turns it on and another that turns it off)? I have replaced the one next to the distributor.

Huckleberry

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jabontke &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Have you tried checking for spark when trying to start when hot? What about fuel pressure readings when trying to start hot? I would check these before spending anymore money.

Additionally, when the car is cold, it runs in open loop, bypassing some emissions and using a preprogrammed ECU map. When its hot, the ECU enters closed loop and starts adjusting the engine based on different sensors and the emissions systems are used to control the emission output level. Might try squirting some starting fluid in the TB when its hoty to see if ity will start on that.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Spark yes, fuel pressure, no. I will take a crack at the fuel pressure and the squirt start.

Thanks,

Huckleberry

 

Any luck?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Huckleberry &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


Well, the fan kicks on at what seems like the right time, it just won't shut off in less than 20 minutes or more. Also, even if you just start the car briefly (like a few seconds), the cooling fan still runs and runs. Is there more than one temp sensor (like one that turns it on and another that turns it off)? I have replaced the one next to the distributor.

Huckleberry

</TD></TR></TABLE> I have a 92 EX and have never seen your model under the hood, so let me ask a couple of questions and make some suggestions. Did the part you replaced have a single wire coming out of it or two? If it had a single wire, it was the sensor for your dash gauge. A 4th gen. has three sensors/switches on the left side. The middle one, closest to the distributor, is the single wire gauge sensor. The one in the back, mounted in the thermostat housing, is the ECT or Engine Coolant Temp Sensor that talks to the ECU. It's failure won't set a code and will cause you to get crappy gas mileage. The one in front is the Fan Switch. Yours may differ, some systems are similar between generations.

You say you hear a gulping? Sounds like air in the coolant system. Did you bleed it after you changed the sensor?

How old are your ignition wires and can you read resistance through all of them, including the coil wire, with a meter?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by amckee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I have a 92 EX and have never seen your model under the hood, so let me ask a couple of questions and make some suggestions. Did the part you replaced have a single wire coming out of it or two? If it had a single wire, it was the sensor for your dash gauge. A 4th gen. has three sensors/switches on the left side. The middle one, closest to the distributor, is the single wire gauge sensor. The one in the back, mounted in the thermostat housing, is the ECT or Engine Coolant Temp Sensor that talks to the ECU. It's failure won't set a code and will cause you to get crappy gas mileage. The one in front is the Fan Switch. Yours may differ, some systems are similar between generations.</TD></TR></TABLE>

My ECT (which we replaced) has two wires. It was throwing a code 6, but it doesn't now.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by amckee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You say you hear a gulping? Sounds like air in the coolant system. Did you bleed it after you changed the sensor?</TD></TR></TABLE>

My son changed that. I doubt he did bleed it. I'll check that, but, that noise seems to be coming from the Idle Control Module, (one of the vacuum sensors) like it's getting a flaky electrical signal or something. I think they used to call those "gulp valves".

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by amckee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How old are your ignition wires and can you read resistance through all of them, including the coil wire, with a meter? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm getting good spark at the plug and I haven't been shocked while holding them FWIW , not sure how old they are.

The plugs are dry when it won't start, so I'm starting to suspect the fuel pump, though I can hear it run when I turn the key. I have to do a fuel pressure test, though I guess it could still be the ECU.

In answer to Jabontke...

"Any luck?"

No, not really.

Huckleberry

 

If you say it will start and run cold, but not start and run when hot, I don't thinks its the fuel pump. I would either check the voltage at the pump or the fuel pressure when trying to start it hot. I can't think of anything ECU related that would cause the pump to switch circuits for power. If you have wiring diagrams, I suggest tracing through the components that are on the fuel pumps circuit.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jabontke &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you say it will start and run cold, but not start and run when hot, I don't thinks its the fuel pump. I would either check the voltage at the pump or the fuel pressure when trying to start it hot. I can't think of anything ECU related that would cause the pump to switch circuits for power. If you have wiring diagrams, I suggest tracing through the components that are on the fuel pumps circuit.</TD></TR></TABLE>

OK, I'll get back to it this weekend. I'd be inclined to suspect the coil, but I have taken readings off it and they seem close to spec and it has never quit while running as coils often do. Spark at the plug seems good.

Another Honda Tech said it might be flooding due to bad feedback from the ECU, ECT, or elsewhere, but I pulled a plug and it was dry. As mentioned, I can hear the pump running.

It's tempting just to buy a coil and see what happens. I need a parts car so i can swap stuff. (Or maybe this IS a parts car )

Arrgh!

Huckleberry

 

Let me clarify a little more on the ECT. Many failures will not set a code. The resistance value of the sensor can move out of range, and the ECU will simply think the engine is still cold and the ECU will stay in default, the EGR won't open, you'll run rich and get crappy mileage. The code 6 is a result of a sensor without resistance or failure of the circuit to the ECU. Pull the connector and check for resistance at the sensor. With the engine hot it will read around 330 ohms, cold will be much higher. If that's OK, check the voltage between the wires on the connector. You should get 5 volts with the key on. If that is good, you do not have a faulty ECT or circuit. Air bubbles in the coolant system are a common problem that produces many different 'issues' . Sensors have to be covered in coolant to conduct the heat and read properly. There is a bleed screw on top of the thermostat housing. It also helps to park on a steep incline or jack the front way up and remove the radiator cap. Sometimes water pumps lose so much impellar that they don't have the power to push the air out, especially through the small coolant lines around the intake which are passively fed, meaning the water doesn't have to go through them. It can take the path of least resistance. Sometimes people use non-Honda thermostats and can't move enough water through to develope the flow needed to clear an air lock.

Now, If your coolant is full and properly bled and you still have issues with the fans, then replace the fan switch located on the water pump inlet housing up front. The ECT sensor does not enable the fans once the ignition is switched off. That's the job of the Fan Switch.

This sounds just like air in the plumbing, so I would make double sure of the things I just listed before moving on. I have read posts over the years, made by mechanics I trust, that believed ECT issues that were the result of air in the coolant lines resulted in hard warm starts. No one had proof, though, just gut feeling.

You can rule out a bad ECU with a noid light that cost about $7 from the parts store. A noid light for a GM will fit every injector harness I've ever seen. Unplug an injector, insert the light and crank it over. If the light pulses, the ECU is sending the signal to the injectors. Check each one. This is also a good test if you suspect ECU problems with ignition. If you're pulsing the light, you're also getting the signal for spark.

Check all grounds. The 4th generation has three. The one on the thermostat housing is absolutely neccessary to crank the engine. Without it, the head is isolated from ground by the gaskets that seal it. You pull a wire and ground a plug on a bracket or the valve cover, which has it's own ground on 91-93's, and you get a spark. You replace the plug and wire into the ungrounded head and think you are OK because you just saw spark. Keep in mind, heat raises the resistance of the plug wires and ground wires and engine blocks and heads. wires can corrode over 19 years and this also manifests itself more when hot.

I have seen many cars that were hard to start and ran rough because of bad/cheap plug wires. I don't doubt you're getting spark, but that doesn't mean you're getting good spark. I bet you can't read resistance through them. The coil can't disapate it's charge fully through a poor conductor. I've seen coil packs ooze green slime on a Ford Escort from this. The guy replaced the coil, but still had intermittant hard starts.
I pulled a wire, which read open as I suspected and told him to change the wires before I would troubleshoot further. He didn't like it, but he did it. No need to troubleshoot further, problem solved. It's always fuel or fire.

One more question, when it's hot and won't start, do you turn the ignition off and then back on each time you try to crank it?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Huckleberry &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


The plugs are dry when it won't start, so I'm starting to suspect the fuel pump, though I can hear it run when I turn the key. I have to do a fuel pressure test, though I guess it could still be the ECU.

Huckleberry
</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you are not getting fuel, it will not start. You need to find out why. Maybe the pump is running, but not pumping fuel. Find out for sure before buying more parts.