I have an 00 Integra GSR with 84k miles. From the symptoms (smokes at high rpms but not an idle or decelerating), it appears that my lower oil control rings are bad. The compression is good at 176-180 across the block. The car has been like this since I bought it 18 months ago. I ran a compression check at the time (and thought everything was good internally, not aware of the lower oil control rings most likely being bad and undetectable by a compression check) and was all hyped about getting a GSR and pretty much overlooked the fact that it smoked at higher rpms. I guess I told myself that it was just from sitting too long or carbon buildup or whatever; I was just tickled to death about getting another Integra.

Fast forward to now, the car still smokes. I bought a new ride and want to sell this one. I'm not a mechanic, but I've tackled a few jobs in the past (on other cars): timing belt, clutch and pressure plate, supercharger install, etc.

My question is, do I even want to deal with this? I dont have a cherry picker or engine hoist or any of the various tools for compression rings, valve seals (if the valve seals would be bad as well), etc, etc. I do have a jack, jackstands, and pretty much every wrench and socket I could need though.

I'm not trying to "pull one over" on someone either. I'm aware that the lower oil control rings or something is bad, and I'm not going to lie to someone.

Assuming best case, I buy a cherry picker, yank the motor, strip it down to the block, take that in and have it honed, buy a few tools to put in new rings and re-assemble. Thats going to cost me, what, $500-800?

However, if the cylinders are in bad shape, I have to either (a) resleeve block, or (b) overbore and buy new pistons, etc. Can I assume this is more like $1000-$1500?

Then if the valve seals are also bad, how much am I looking to replace those? I dont have any of those fancy tools; valve compression, valve seat remover, valve seat installer, etc, etc. I dont know thats exactly what they're called, I just seen a whole slew of them mentioned in the Helms manual.

Ok, enough babble, what do you guys think? List it in the autotrader as is? Post it on Ebay as is? Or tear it apart, spend a bunch of money and my time and then sell it?

BTW, I'm not bored, I have plenty of other things going on around the house and at work and I dont exactly want to open up a can of worms.

thanks guys!
-Mike

 

Tell you the truth...this can cost as much as 200 bucks.

Why pull the engine? leave it in there. Pull off the head, oil pan, crank girdle, pistons/rods and get the 'd-i-y' engine hone and hone it out yourself. Then just put on a new set of rings onto the pistons if the pistons are fine and put it back in.

Just check with a bore gauge if the cylinders are still 'round' and it should be fine.

No point pulling it out if you feel comfortable in your own ability. I've honed my owned engines and my friends and all of them run great and have awesome compression readings.

Valve seals go bad as well but more then likely it's the rings.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that a GSR's compression test reading should be around ~240 for each cylinder?

I thought the LS was around the 180 range.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr.RHTuner &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Tell you the truth...this can cost as much as 200 bucks.

Why pull the engine? leave it in there. Pull off the head, oil pan, crank girdle, pistons/rods and get the 'd-i-y' engine hone and hone it out yourself. Then just put on a new set of rings onto the pistons if the pistons are fine and put it back in.

Just check with a bore gauge if the cylinders are still 'round' and it should be fine.

No point pulling it out if you feel comfortable in your own ability. I've honed my owned engines and my friends and all of them run great and have awesome compression readings.

Valve seals go bad as well but more then likely it's the rings.</TD></TR></TABLE>

ok, fine, i'll fix it. :-P i started tearing into it last night. i should have the head off this weekend. where can i pick up one of these honing kits? i know i looked around before, but i'm thinking they were all like 200 grit, and honda says to use 400 or 600. ..?

which gaskets must i replace and which ones can i get away with re-using?

what kind of tools do i need to get? a way to get the old rings off the pistons? a way to get the new rings on the pistons? a file or something to file down the new rings? a ring compressor for putting the pistons back in the block?

 

http://www.hastingsmfg.com/techtips.htm will tell you all you need to know about rings.

The type of ring used will determine the hone... most recommend 220-280 grit.... you'll need to break the glaze before honing...

Gaskets - if you remove it, replace it.... if it's easy to replace at the time, replace it. not much point in re-using anything (gasket-wise). get a head gasket set and that'll have nearly everything. Other "while it's open": oil pickup gasket, oil pan gasket, front main. (an extra $20 tops). Magnetic oil pan bolt to pickup any leftovers.

With regards to not doing things now.... its all the way apart, valve seals are a spring compression away... do it once, do it right and be done with it...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by supadupamikey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

ok, fine, i'll fix it. :-P i started tearing into it last night. i should have the head off this weekend. where can i pick up one of these honing kits? i know i looked around before, but i'm thinking they were all like 200 grit, and honda says to use 400 or 600. ..?

which gaskets must i replace and which ones can i get away with re-using?

what kind of tools do i need to get? a way to get the old rings off the pistons? a way to get the new rings on the pistons? a file or something to file down the new rings? a ring compressor for putting the pistons back in the block?</TD></TR></TABLE>

About the DIY engine honing. There are 2 types of devices you can buy/rent.

First is the normal stones one, and the 2nd is the ball hone.
I personally never used the ball hone, I use the standard stones one.

normal Stones Hone


Ball hone



Like I said, if you do this properly it will work fine. No need to take the block out and have a machine shop do it unless you need to have an overbore or inspect the cylinders for out-of-round. I've done this method on a bunch of engines of mine and my friends and we never had any problems


Which gasket to replace? well you can replace your head gasket with a new one, valve cover gasket and valve cover plug gaskets


What kind tools do you need? the old piston rings will come off the pistons fairly easily. If you pull them off, take the pistons and spray them down with varsol/simple green and use a toothbrush to clean out the piston groves where they are seated normally. Get all the carbon/grime out of there.

Putting the pistons on isn't difficult at all. My recommendation is go buy a Haynes manual to assist you with this rebuild.

And using the Haynes manual and honda-tech, you will need to slide on of the piston rings into the cylinder wall and check the gap between the tips of the rings. If the gap is more then spec, you will need to use a file and gently file it down and re-inspect it till it meets specification standard.

And yea, go buy/rent a piston ring compressor to help you put them in. Also make sure you 'seat' and 'clock' the piston rings accordingly so that they serve and seal as they should

 

ball hones work great. i like them alot better than the standard stone hone. but they both work

 

well, the head is off and the pistons are out. i've never done any kind of work like this and i was surprised at how nice the cylinder walls look/feel. they are completely smooth ,if i rub my fingers over them, i cant find any grooves or rough spots or anything.

as far as removing the pistons, is there a reason to remove the crank girdle? i just removed the (excuse my terminology) nuts holding the pistons onto the crankshaft. i didn't touch the crank at all.

so at this point, i need to order parts; a set of piston rings, all the seals/gaskets that i've tampered with, hondabond, etc, as well as pick up a ring compressor, hone kit, ring expander, etc.

i need to look up how to change the valve seals if thats not too much more work and money since i've already got everything open.

oh, whats a good way to clean up the piston 'face'? they're pretty nasty with lots of buildup. also the exhaust ports on the head look pretty nasty too. can i just simple green that stuff and hose it off? how much would it cost if i just took the head to a machine shop and had them change the valve seals and just 'clean' it up?

thanks for the help guys!
-Mike

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by supadupamikey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">oh, whats a good way to clean up the piston 'face'? they're pretty nasty with lots of buildup. also the exhaust ports on the head look pretty nasty too. can i just simple green that stuff and hose it off? how much would it cost if i just took the head to a machine shop and had them change the valve seals and just 'clean' it up?

thanks for the help guys!
-Mike</TD></TR></TABLE>


to clean the pistons itself, use varsol/simple green, spray and scrub them. They wont be completely clean but do as good of a job as you can.

Don't clean the intake/exhaust ports, if anything take the head to a machine shop, they will dissemble it and hot tank it at least. Then you can talk about having the valve seals replaced.


Also make sure, the piston rod caps you keep in the exact same order and position

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr.RHTuner &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">to clean the pistons itself, use varsol/simple green, spray and scrub them. They wont be completely clean but do as good of a job as you can.

Don't clean the intake/exhaust ports, if anything take the head to a machine shop, they will dissemble it and hot tank it at least. Then you can talk about having the valve seals replaced.


Also make sure, the piston rod caps you keep in the exact same order and position</TD></TR></TABLE>

here's some pictures i just uploaded:
http://halfawake.com/w00t/motorrebuild1

I'm guessing the oil on top of the pistons is from me adding some oil to see how it affected the compression check, which i did (as well as a leak down test) right before I tore it apart.

 

well, i finished putting the car back together yesterday. she runs ALOT better. i've been trying to go easy on her while the rings 'seat', and no signs of smoke thus far. i've put ~140 miles on her since yesterday and the oil is still at the same mark on the dipstick.
[note: before the rebuild, i would burn a quart of oil every 100 miles or so.]

i pulled the head and had a machine shop do a valve job on it. they also refaced it. this set me back $320.

my first parts order set me back $360; thats the head gasket kit, oil pan gasket, new rings and a couple misc items.

my 2nd parts order was for a broken oil jet i found, a couple misc o-rings that weren't in the head gasket kit and a few misc nuts/bolts that were missing, this set me back $41.

i also spent around $150 on misc tools, fluids, etc.

oh, and i had a box o' parts that i ordered over a year ago containing a new timing belt, water pump, drive belts, thermostat, belts, filters, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, etc, etc. this cost me $315 back in december 05.

anyways, the car is back together. all new parts are on. she runs good. im gonna put some more miles on her and run a compression check just for kicks.

and i think im gonna keep her too. i think my fiancee is going to take over the Element, and I'll keep driving the GSR. and we're selling her VW New Beetle - hehe.

anyways, thanks for the encouragement. it really wasn't that hard. just a little time consuming. the worst thing was probably getting that intake manifold on and off. the helms manual is my friend.

 

So u did it all in about a month working every afternoon, and only spent about $1300 that good imo. im thinking i need to do the samething. either that or take my head to the mechine shop and have it redone. good job man let us know how it all turns out.

 

actually, i only worked on it saturdays and sundays. i was taking my good ol' time too. and there was quite a bit of downtime while waiting on parts too.

but its all done. my teggy is happy again. so am i. w00t

 

thats good for just sat and sun.

 

yeah dude def. post compression results.. did you replace bearings? shoulda while u were in there.. but sounds like u did a great job. sucks to not pull out the motor though..