Went autocrossing for the first time this weekend....I was wondering about a few things. In the sharp "s" section my car seemed to push or plow causing the tires and suspension to hop pretty bad. Besides just plain driver error (carrying to much speed into corners or braking too late) what else could cause this? I was running Falken Azenis with 40f/40r tire pressure and I rolled the edge a little on both front tires. I am running Mugen Lowdowns and my settings were 3f and 4r. Just looking for any input or constructive criticism. Mostly this weekend I learned that I am going to need ALOT more seat time to better my skills and just a little more time to dial my car in better. Thanks in advance for any help. Mark.

 

w/ the azenis, I ran 41F/ 50R (psi). This should help you get rid of any push

 

Brake before the corners. It's better to exit a corner with a lot of speed than enter one with it. This allows you to use your tire traction for turning in the corner instead of braking. Lots of folks go in with way too much speed which is a big no no since the car has a propensity to push anyway being FWD. Also, maybe run a little higher pressure in the back tires to encourage the rear to come around

 

So, you "only" have Azenis and low-down as you suspension mods? Anything else?

I know that my frigging car plowed like a pig when stock front strut tower brace was swapped for Mugen tower brace. I kid you not.

 

My GSR felt alot more 'pushy' with the Comptech Front bar replacing the stock bar. But when I put the Spoon Rear upper in, it made all the difference in the world. It really brought the back end back into play...

 

You are going to have to play with the tire pressures to find the correct balance. You can either reduce the pressure in the front or increase the pressure at the rear. Just do either/or not front and rear. The previous thread said 40/51 I believe. Start with that and play with it. Every car is different and every race day is different. Also, I have the same suspension. Set them to 2 front and 5 rear. No need to play with shock setting from there. I also have the 26mm rear Mugen bar and that helps too. Good luck.

Make air adjustment every 2 psi.


[Modified by ITR_0207, 11:20 AM 5/13/2002]

 

Congrats on autocrossing !!!

Usually for tight turns it is best to SLOW DOWN HEAVILY before the turn, then take the turn slow, use the LSD to power out of the turn. Obviously, I can't give you exact advice without seeing the course.

Your pressures seemed ok. You may want to run your rear tires at 2-4psi higher or lower to aid in rotation.

If you are rolling the tires over, it is usually driver error. This usually says that you are going into corners to hot, and trying to turn at to high of a steering angle....basically, heavy understeer. To combat understeer, turn the OPPOSITE direction. Sounds wrong but it works. So if you need to turn left and you are understeering, turn the steering wheel slightly right and then you will be able to go left. Basically, this reduces the slip angle of the tire so you are able to gain traction. You can read more about this in Henry Watts book, "Secrets of Solo Racing" it is on http://www.amazon.com for only $7 bucks or so.

Good luck !!

 

Thanks for all the replys guys.....

 

yeah SLOW DOWN BEFORE TURN... unless you are a crazy **** and can master left foot braking...

 

Hey Mark,

It was good to meet you the other day. I didn't get a chance to run until much later in the afternoon so I couldn't be too much help. But I'll tell you that those two hairpins were really hard. For those reading this, our course had two 180 degree hairpins preceeded by a huge sweeper where I was topping out second. So we had to brake hard to slow down enough for the turns.
I pushed a little on my first run, but you have to trust the car and power out of it. Let the LSD do its job. I could also feel the back end wanting to get loose if you brake too hard.

For the first run I had my tires set at 36f/36r and it seemed to push a bit. Second run I tried 39f/41r and it didn't feel as comfortable so for the third I ran 38f/39r and that felt pretty good. Yoshi, are you running on stock rims? I can't believe you're getting a good contact patch with such high pressures. Even set at 36/36 my tires didn't roll too bad at all.

Don't get discouraged. Next event I'll try to find you a few rides first so you don't get so lost . I don't think anyone will mind (Jeff) since you're just doing it for fun (for now anyway).

Also, Mark has the ATS FD and where I was topping out second on the sweeper, he was half way through 3rd! I couldn't believe it.

Mark, IM me or e-mail me so we can chat more.

 

congrats on your first autox, another thing to keep in mind when turning the cones or just racing the course in general is try not to keep it in low gear all the time. for example don't keep it in first because you think all the power is there, when you take a sharp turn in such low gears the tires seem to be unbalanced from the high revs and you tend to steer out of control alot more often. don't be afraid to keep it in higher gears.

 

Most courses, at least for the ITR, you will top out second gear. You might hit the rev limiter for a second but you will not gain anything by shifting to third since you will have to down shift two seconds eariler. Takes too much time. Also, as we all know, the ITR power band is beyond 7k rpm's and a shift into third you might put the car out of VETC.

You mentioned hair pin turns. This IS the slowest part of the course. So this should be the area you drive the slowest through. You can win your class just by driving the hair pin correctly. When going through the "S" turns it should be very smooth and the throttle position should not fluctuate. Through the turns you can feel the LSD work by giving it more throttle. You can actually feel the car being pulled through the turns.

 

 

I think when he mentions the higher gear, he means do not shift into first o tight turns....basically leave the car in second.

I see so many novices trying to shift to first. You almost NEVER have to shift to first unless it is a 10mph turn or something. The time it takes to shift etc. etc. you will lose any advantages to trying to get into the power band.

 

I would run 2f/5r then bump up the front one level each event until you find what works best for you. Also, as everyone else has mentioned already, brake before the turns and accelerate through and if you end up in a push try unwinding the steering wheel.

 

You are correct. Go through the hair pin in second and gently increase the throttle while letting the car drift out a liitle, if you have the room, then floor it upon exiting. One year auto-xing I always had a competitor in a CRX and I had my GSR with a lot of ITR goodies and all did in a single lap was take the hair pin right and lost over a second from the CRX and took first place.

 

Hmmm - we've had some 180 degree hairpins lately and I've found that coming out of it in 1st gear was faster - but of course you have to be sure to brake and shift at the right time...

 

Keep the settings AT 2f/5r. This keeps the front end loose and the rear tight, which reduces the "pushing" effect. Then play with the tire pressures. I've spent numerous event finding out the optimum setting.

 

Hey Mark, (goern-r) I was looking for you before we left for the day.....If you still want to go for that ride let me know what day or time works for you. It was great meeting you on Saturday and I appreciate the advice....ALOT. My email is messed up at work right now so call me at work (480)641-2811 ext.111. Are you going to PIR next weekend? I may go to ride with my neighbor and check it out.

Thanks again to everyone for all the advice I will need it.

 

Yes, I'll be at PIR but just on Sat. I couldn't get Sun. off . Figures... They race PIR maybe 3 times a year and I have to work. Oh well, I'll see you there hopefully.

Mark G.

 

Mark

One thing to keep in mind is that you are running a street tire. I cannot say how well the Azenis grip (they are still in the garage waiting to be mounted), but at track events and autocrosses it is night and day difference between my RE71 (treadware 140) and my V700 (treadware 50). Arguably, the biggest reason is for understeer and oversteer is going to be driver input, but stickier tires can help greatly. It's great you first autocrossed on street tires so if you do decide to use R compund tires in the future, you will be able to tell the difference. I have been autocrossing the R for 3 years now and just dig it!

Dave
98R417

 

I would have suggested something completely different. FInd a tire pressure that prevents sidewall rollover and nothing more which on Azenis's is close to 40. Some rollover is ok.

I run my Dunlop SP9000's at 39-41 psi. From there I set my front shocks at 1/2 still (8 clicks on the HA's). THen I set the rears accordingly which changes with each track. I normall start at about 75% stiff and go up but you might start full stuff and see how she does. Shocks are easier to control and more predictable in their behavior than tire pressure IMO.

You should try both methods and see what works for you.

 

Yoshi, what size wheel were you using here? If it's the stocker (15x6) then I can understand that. With only one auto-x under my belt with my new Azenis, I found much better results at 35 psi in front than the 39 psi I started with, but that was on 15x7 wheels. At 39 psi, I could definitely feel the tires slipping out from underneath the car. Azenis have an incredibly stiff sidewall, so you can get away with less air pressure than you might be used to running.

 

just hit the cones!... the hopping is the cones going under your tires.. dont' forget to wave at the course workers as they flip you the bird!

a few things to remember about auto-x
1.) Go slow in the slow parts... you will loose more time in the slow parts if you are going to fast. A messed up slow turn will easily take a second off your time
1a.) Go fast in the fast parts (you won't make up any time here, but at least you won't loose any)
2.) Brake early, turn, and get on the gas
3.) Look ahead... way ahead...
4.) Be smooth... jerking around won't make you fast.