Well, I'm finally sick enough of my current (aftermarket) setup to replace it. I need more ground clearance, but I still want a nice taut feel.

I plan to replace my dampers with Bilsteins. For springs I've narrowed it down to a couple of options.

The first option is just getting some new OEM ITR springs. This would give me much better ground clearance and an acceptable balance between ride and handling.

The second option is a set of Ground Control coilovers with about 350f/300r spring rates and Bilstein-compatible sleeves. The GCs are a few bucks cheaper than the OEM springs, but the difference isn't huge. However, I do like the idea of slightly higher spring rates and adjustable ride height. What I'm wondering about is just how close the ground clearance is to OEM when they're adjusted to the maximum ride height.

As for the car's typical use, these days it is basic transportation (hence the desire for greater clearance and suspension travel, as well as a desire to avoid super-stiff springs). I'm too broke and busy trying to finish school to participate in motorsport. However, that will hopefully change when I'm done in the near future, and I would like to be able to get something now that would be appropriate for the occasional auto-x later on, without being too punishing on the street.

One more thing: I often load up the car with heavy musical equipment. My guitar amp alone weighs 80 lbs. and when it's sitting in the trunk it is fairly noticable. Would it be advisable to get somewhat stiffer springs in the rear (say, 350f/350r) to compensate for this?

Any other advice would be appreciated as well.

 

if youre going to get bilsteins might as well get a set of ground controls. i recommend 400f/500r as recommended to me by others. 350/300 would turn your itr into more of a plow than anything.

btw the bilsteins in the back are a PITA to get in, so do it once, do it right

 

Thanks.

I've thought about that, especially given the preference around here for a stiffer rear spring rate.

However, I really like the general balance of the OEM springs (240f/160-240r) and would like something somewhat similar to that. That's why I was considering maybe going 350f/350r.

I understand the Bilsteins are good for up to 500 lb-inch springs, and would like a little headroom in that respect, so I don't think I'll be going much higher than 400 lb-inch rates. Of course, I may change my mind on that, depending on what I learn here. That's why I asked.

 

Wow that is soft... you will need a much higher rate to feel as solid.
I am selling a full set of GC/springs/top hats/and Konis for $500 and in am in San Antonio and would even let you feel how they ride before i pull them.

 

Have you seen the Mugen items?
I have a set in my ITR, it only drops it by 20mm over stock (ish) and have 5way damper adjustment, with 5kg front and 9kg rear springs.
I dont know if your after some full adjustable set up but, its a really nice setup for the track and the street.

Usually run 3+ damper street, good stifness increase over stock, and 5 on the track. Rough as rails
Can post pics before and after if you like?

 

I've only seen the Mugen stuff in pics.

I don't doubt its nice, but it's more money than I'm willing to spend, and probably more track-oriented than what I need. Also, 20mm lower than stock is lower than I'd ideally like to be. I hope to be within about 10mm of the stock ride height.

As for the spring rates I'm looking at being soft, keep in mind the stock ITR springs are 240f/160-240r, so 350 lb-inch is about 46 percent stiffer than stock. This is primarily a street car that may see a few auto-x days in the near future, so I don't think my needs will be met suitably by a setup intended for a HPDE/track car.

I also don't want super-stiff springs because I am concerned about the forces I'm putting into the chassis. I'd like to preserve the integrity of the structure, and unnecessarily heavy springs won't help me there.

[edit] I'm not trying to shoot other people's ideas down here. Actually, I'm hoping someone will explain to me why I'm wrong about the subject of spring rates as they relate to my goals for the car, if indeed I am wrong. I understand a lot of people here do use something in the neighborhood of 400f/500r with the GCs, and if that really is the setup that will give me what I want from my car, then that's probably what I should get now that I'm willing to spend the time and money to do it. My intuition tells me that setup is too stiff, especially in the rear, to be what I'm looking for. But I'm coming here for an education.


Modified by MK Ultra at 1:35 AM 10/11/2006

 

y0! I see you may go Bilstein. Please let me know if you want GC coilovers for cheap. I am returning my R to stock to run D stock. I have the sleaves for the Bilstein coilovers and about 3 sets of springs to choose from. 330 and 400 for the front and 400 for the rear.

I could sell you 400f/400R with sleeves for a reasonable price if you are interested. I would recommend at least a 400lb spring for the front as due to the shortened suspension travel, you may bottom out the fronts with a soft spring.

Another choice could be stock springs with bilsteins



Modified by Larkin W. at 8:08 AM 10/11/2006

 

Larkins deal sounds like the way I would go. Dont let a 400lb spring rate fool you, as a high quality damper (such as Bilsteins) can control it quite well and the ride is probably not going to be as harsh as youd expect.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jetydosa &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Larkins deal sounds like the way I would go. Dont let a 400lb spring rate fool you, as a high quality damper (such as Bilsteins) can control it quite well and the ride is probably not going to be as harsh as youd expect.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yup, rides about the same as my wife's MINI Cooper S with stock suspension on Runflat tires. Feels great to me. I actually hate to get rid of the GC coilovers, but I'm ready to give D stock a try and the coilovers aren't legal soo I'll be running Bilstein's with stock springs soon. Just have to tear the car apart...again...lol....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MK Ultra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The second option is a set of Ground Control coilovers....</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think you're on the right tack with Bilsteins and Ground Control.

Here is another vote for 400 F / 500 R. I and many friends have used this combination, and you will like it. It sounds heavy, but it's not. It's fine on the street and allows the car to perform quite well on the track.

 

Yeah, the stock springrate combo does work very well, but you have to keep in mind that a lot of that has to do with the damper settings. The rear of the car feels much stiffer than the spring rate suggests.

When you load the trunk of the car with gear you think it would make the car feel stiffer, since you're using a stiffer part of the coil but it doesn't. It's because the stock shocks effectively stiffen the suspension when you're in the 160 pound range.

So when you go to a linear rate spring and non-stock shock you really have to stiffen up the rear more than the front. I'm sure the 400/500 combo would work very well for you. But you can't argue with the simplicity and purpose-builtness of the stock setup. It sounds like everything you want from the car would be satisfied by just going stock.

 

Have you considered stock ITR springs with Koni adjustables?

I believe the ITR Konis have a notch one below oem height that alows you to run a few mm lower. That would solve both of your problems. Then later on you could upgrade to a set of Ground Controls.

I like Bilsteins, but for the ITR I'd only go Konis if I were looking for an oem replacement shock.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So when you go to a linear rate spring and non-stock shock you really have to stiffen up the rear more than the front. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Ah, thank you. I was wondering about how the difference between a linear rate and a progressive rate figured into this. What I'm concerned with mostly is getting to an OEM-like balance between the ends of the car. A stock ride isn't as much of a concern. But like I said, I do worry a little about the effect stiffer springs will have on the stiffness of the chassis over time. If I have to have compliance somewhere, I'd rather it be in the suspension than the chassis. Also, though I'd like to have a flat cornering attitude, I wonder if stiffer springs will allow the suspension to get the most from its range of travel (not so much for ride compliance, but for scalilng some of the attrocious angles at which roads seem to meet each other here in Austin). But perhaps I am unnecessarily concerned.

Also, those of you suggesting the OEM springs are absolutely right: The stock springs would allow my car to assume the characteristics I desire.

But I am going to keep looking into the Ground Controls for a few reasons. One, I am simply curious. Two, I can get the GCs for close enough to the same price as OEM, so why not do a little more research. Three, the sleeves will allow the car to be corner weighted, which would be nice when the time comes to start exercising it again.

Honestly, I've never considered the Konis. Most, if not all, of my Integra-driving friends use them, and they are excellent dampers in my opinion. But they cost a little more than the Bisteins, I believe. I like Bilsteins a lot. Had them on my old Merc, and that car drove beautifully (once you got past the inch of slack on-center in the steering, that is). I like that the Bilstein is a monotube design (not sure what the Konis are, actually), and I like the self-adjusting nature of the Bils.

 

You'll love the Bilsteins. I have been told that they have been tested to handle up to 600 lb springs without need for a revalve FYI. They can easily handle rates that would work perfect for you. I actually absolutely love the way my 97' handles with Bilstein/GC setup.

 

Well you certainly can't go wrong with a Ground Control kit, especially if you're not using stock shocks. It's definitely worth trying. You'll get to play with ride height, different spring rates, corner weighting, alignments all kinds of fun stuff!

I wouldn't worry about the long-term effects on the chassis though. I understand why you would worry though. I'm sure there will be increased wear, but nothing you'd really notice. I ran with a 450/550 setup and then a 550/800 setup for about 50k miles, and I never had anything go wrong because of it.

 

Which Bilsteins are you guys using?

Are they the HDs or the Sports?

 

I too went with 400/500. It is great!

 

For daily driving, I found the bilsteins to be too harsh for daily driving. After reading up on the suspension forum, it appears to be the monotube design used by the shock. This can be seen in the shock dynos.

I replaced my bilsteins with Konis and have been much happier.


--and I think they were the bilstein sport.

 

I've been daily driving Bilstein sports w/stock springs for a couple years. If they're harsh, I've never noticed it. I'm quite happy with them.