I have been trying to work on my rev matching and left foot braking. I can usually do an adequate job of slowing the car down when I am coming to a corner and matching the revs to have it in second gear by corner entry. This is where I want to make sure I am using the left foot braking correctly.

As it has been explained to me as soon as you get the car in gear and rev matched you slide your feet over and get the left foot on the brake. At that point you do any more braking that needs to be done and "drag" the brake to about the middle of the corner while the right foot is keeping the revs up. At that point your revs are up and you can shoot out of the corner.

The guys who are explaning this to me arent exactly Michael Schumacher, but they are still getting around faster than I am. If I have any of this out of order or am way off base please dont hesitate to let me know.

Thanks ahead of time, Giff

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by giff74 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The guys who are explaning this to me arent exactly Michael Schumacher, but they are still getting around faster than I am. If I have any of this out of order or am way off base please dont hesitate to let me know.

Thanks ahead of time, Giff </TD></TR></TABLE>

Who explained left foot braking to you? Are you driving on asphalt?
ALL the professional race car drivers I have seen do not left foot brake, and I'm sure they are all faster than the guys who explained LFB to you.

The only pro drivers I've seen LFB are rally drivers.

 

Yep, this was on solid surfaces. I believe their thinking was LFB allows to continue braking while adding revs before you would normally be able to. Like I said I am hardly the expert, just looking for some first hand info.

 

Used to correct understeer midcorner I thought because it shifts weight over the front wheels? I could be wrong though.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Type Zero &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
ALL the professional race car drivers I have seen do not left foot brake, and I'm sure they are all faster than the guys who explained LFB to you.

The only pro drivers I've seen LFB are rally drivers.</TD></TR></TABLE>

so i take it you've only seen one or two "pro" drivers then?

you can't keep your revs up unless you're driving an automatic. clutch out, in gear, the engine is going to be spinning at the same rpm regardless of whether your foot is on the gas or not.

if you are braking mid corner/past apex, you're slow. lfb'ing isn't supposed to be used to fix an ill handling car. it's main purpose in life is a tool to keep the chassis balanced better by smoothing the transition from gas to brake and back to gas. some guys with play around with dynamic brake bias by using lfb'ing, but it's more the exception then the norm. doing so is extra tough on the car and real race cars have cockpit adjustable brake bias so there really shouldn't be any need.

turbo cars are a different animal entirely. personally, i think picking up the throttle earlier is a better solution to getting around turbo lag, but whatever.

nate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so i take it you've only seen one or two "pro" drivers then?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Coincidently I have seen hundreds of in-car racing videos, both pro and amatuer racers, some even with camera showing the foot work, there were none of them using LFB.....

 

But then I've been reading Ross Bentley again in Speed Secrets 2.

giff74:

You're just going to have to go out and practice it a lot! Maybe try hitting a kart track? For sure the toughest time to LFB is following a H/T downshift. It's pretty easy to do it on a fast corner that doesn't require a downshift.

The video I've seen shows the H/T applied very quickly. The left foot releases the clutch and gets on the brake right away and the right foot toes swing back over on the gas pedal (heel stays in place)

I did manage to get a foot cramp when I first started out trying it!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WWDTrackRacer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But then I've been reading Ross Bentley again in Speed Secrets 2.

giff74:

You're just going to have to go out and practice it a lot! Maybe try hitting a kart track? For sure the toughest time to LFB is following a H/T downshift. It's pretty easy to do it on a fast corner that doesn't require a downshift.

The video I've seen shows the H/T applied very quickly. The left foot releases the clutch and gets on the brake right away and the right foot toes swing back over on the gas pedal (heel stays in place)

I did manage to get a foot cramp when I first started out trying it! </TD></TR></TABLE>

So I guess Bentley is using LFB?

I am surprised by the different opinions here. I am hardly an experienced race driver and dont as of yet have a dedicated race car. However, I have been watching a number of more experienced guys using LFB in all kinds of corners. After thinking about it I think most of them are using LFB until the apex. Seems it makes sense that this would be a way to bring the revs up faster while waiting to finish your braking, especially for a four cylinder higher revving car.

Anyone other experienced folks out there either using or not using LFB in small displacement cars?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by giff74 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Anyone other experienced folks out there either using or not using LFB in small displacement cars?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've been training myself to use it more and more. So far, I've matched or
slightly bettered all my previous laptimes @ my regular tracks. So it's definitely not hurting.

If anything, it has made driving exciting and challenging again. And it has given me more options when needing to get more rotation on demand (brake steering instead of throttle) or avoid power-wheelspin (I dont have a LSD)

 

my only experiance wiht it is in auto-x with no downshifting. I have been able to use it a couple of times to keep the car from pushing. usually when I have to use it it's because I screwed up somewhere else though.

I use it a lot whenever I co-drive my dad's mini though. That car has absolutly no power below 4000 rpm. If I can keep some throtle in it while LFBing it seems to help it pull itself out of the corner though.

 

This is addressed in the May 2006 issue of Sports Car on p.26 by Randy Pobst, good article.

 

If F-1 drivers can be classified as Pro, then there are 22 guy's plus test drivers that use left foot braking. Especially as there is no clutch pedal. And about 10,000 go-kart drivers. Plus most of the NASCAR, CCWS, and IRL drivers.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by giff74 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have been trying to work on my rev matching and left foot braking. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Do you mind if I ask a really dumb question? Have you unplugged the ABS for these experiments or are you dealing with the EBS/VBS while you're doing this?

On your car, there is no way to shut off the EBS/VBS w/out shutting off the ABS at the same time, so I'm curious what you are doing.

If you are leaving the system active on your car, it's possible you're feeling you are having to left foot brake to throw the car around because when you leave it to its own devices, the car tries to correct your trail braking.

In other words, your particular car (unless you are *very* smooth) might be trying to steer you off course to the right as you are trying to trail brake to the left, giving you the impression that you have to come up with some kind of more violent manoeuver to get the car to turn. If this is what's going on, then you are on the wrong tack. You actually need to get less violent, not more violent, with your EP3 if you are leaving the ABS-EBS-VBS turned on.

If you've already considered all this, and/or you have turned the system off, then we can move on to the next part of the argument.

I know lots of race winners with front drive cars who would never, ever even consider left foot braking. I am not sure where you are trying to get or why you feel left foot braking is essential, but consider whether you've mastered everything else first. If with your EP3 you are already matching the H3 speeds of cars on the same track, then you're probably skilled enough that you *might* want to consider learning the new skill of left foot braking.

IMHO, of course. Your mileage may vary, standard disclaimer applies, warranty void with improper use, and in the event of capture Her Majesty disavows any knowledge of the action.

IMHO you can be a wonderfully smooth, very fast and safe track driver w/out even thinking about left foot braking, and most Honda Challenge winners do not left foot brake unless they've got themselves in a situation that requires radical correction.

On the other hand, Ryan Jenkins is an up and coming H4 driver who makes quite a bit of use of left foot braking. We'll see how it goes. He's definitely quite fast, but his execution is almost violent when compared to people who have won races before with similar lap times.

Ryan's an awesome, fast driver and I'm really looking forward to seeing how his technique stacks up and whether he's going to be winning races with it.

Left foot is hell on your passengers, too.

I can ride a full sprint session with Corey and then just get out of the car and walk away.

Ryan's got me dizzy about ten minutes into it!! But...he's fast....

 

All of your answers, especially George's, have given me a lot to think about here. As I mentioned I am neither particularly fast yet nor do I have a dedicated race car. However, I do like to tinker with my driving style, thus the trial with LFB.

To answer you question George, I have not disabled the ABS. Is the EBS/VBS the built in system with ABS that attempts to keep the car under "control?" Therefore when I make sudden turns to corner the car thinks its losing control and tries to keep me going straight? I guess that is what you mean by being smoother to avoid interruption by the car.

A couple of things are coming to mind. The first is that it is finally time to fork out some dough and go to a professional driving school. Being smooth, HT braking, using the correct line and maybe even LFB are all things that I would improve upon with a little first hand instruction.

If anyone has anything to offer on either the school at Road Atlanta or Mid-Ohio please chime in. Skip Barber looks great, but I am in Kentucky and I dont see anything even remotely close.

The second thing I am starting to see is that the sooner I can convert the ep3 into a "dedicated" race car the more user friendly it will be. I know this platform is as desireable as the dc2R, but I dont think I will be out driving those McPherson struts anytime soon.

Thanks for all the help guys and feel free to offer any feedback on driving schools.

 

I see that there is actually a misinterpretation between left foot braking and heel-and-toe downshifting. Left foot braking and heel-and-toe are two separate things. When you heel-and-toe, you do not LFB because the toes of your right foot is already doing the braking.

LFB on the other hand is used as someone pointed out to smoothen the transition from throttle to braking and braking back to throttle while simultaneously overlapping the two so that you decrease the amount of time it takes to transition from one to another; hence, overlapping.
F-1, Nascar, WRC, etc.. uses it all the time, especially Nascar because their turns are long fast sweepers. However, Ross Bentley, once again points out that the sucess of Michael Schumacher can be credited towards his LFB technique and how he has perfected it more than any of his competitors. He's smoother, quicker, and overlaps more precisely than his opponents.

-X12

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by giff74 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I guess that is what you mean by being smoother to avoid interruption by the car.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes, exactly. It's hard to describe w/out experiencing it. You <u>can</u> trail brake on my 2006 Accord HFP 6-6 HFP Coupe w/the VSA left turned on. The computer does not seem to panic unless it senses a jerkiness or suddeness that's hard to describe...but when the computer interjects with its opinion there is a very definite change in the car's attitude.

The 2006 VSA can brake just one wheel by itself, or two, or three...and it will use the drive-by-wire to actually change your throttle position without your permission....

Very unnerving.

But I think the Accord is faster with VSA left turned on.

I was at the track Friday with a guy w/a TL 6-6. He liked to turn off the VSA and rely on his Torsen axle exclusively.

The problem w/the EP3, as you are well aware, is that you turn off ABS when you turn off EBS, and you don't have a Torsen axle to help w/this unless you've put one in.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by X12 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">LFB on the other hand is used as someone pointed out to smoothen the transition from throttle to braking and braking back to throttle while simultaneously overlapping the two so that you decrease the amount of time it takes to transition from one to another; hence, overlapping.
...the sucess of Michael Schumacher can be credited towards his LFB technique and how he has perfected it ....</TD></TR></TABLE>
You are absolutely, 100% correct.

Within the scope of this particular forum, however, we are usually talking about, at one end of the scale, fun track cars and autocrossing cars, and at the other end of the scale SCCA IT cars and Honda Challenge cars, with an occasional Grand Am, World Challenge or Rolex driver popping in for fun's sake.

Within that definition, I think that LFB is arguable as to its efficacy, notwithstanding its obvious uses in more important racing series.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by giff74 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">After thinking about it I think most of them are using LFB until the apex. </TD></TR></TABLE>

If all these people are braking up until the apex of whatever turn, they're not driving as fast as they could be.

&lt;--- Also not as fast as he can be, but definitely on the gas before any apex...