Does anybody make front winglets for the USDM front? Maybe Feels/First Molding (I can't read Japanese on their site) but I'm sure it is for the JDM front. Here is a photo of what I am talking about on a different car. I plan on ading a Mugen wing at the rear of the car and thought these may help downforce (grip) at the front to balance out the increased grip in the rear from the wing.

 

*cough* ricer *cough*

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">*cough* ricer *cough*</TD></TR></TABLE>

LOL... :sigh:

 

Chad posted something about these types of things after one of the HC races at BeaveRun.
They had a significant (detremental)effect on top speed.
I'd suggest a splitter/airdam first.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zygspeed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd suggest a splitter/airdam first. </TD></TR></TABLE>

You are probably right. I need to figure out how to build one (a good one) or find somebody to build one for me...

 

Those are called canards. Search the Sponsored For Sale section on HT. There are several companies that make these. A bit too expensive for me considering I can make them for a whole hell of a lot cheaper with the same materials.

Anyways, I'm no aerodynamic guru but understand the principals some what. Front canards probably will not make that much of a difference the surface area is minimal. Perhaps use them for minor tweaking if you need just a tad more front end down force.

Look at the aerodynamic properties of the car as a whole instead of piece by piece. I have the formula stuck around here somewhere that gives you a general idea of the down force created at any speed over a certain square area with whatever angle that area is cocked at....gonna go look.

As suggested, I would try the front splitter/diffuser first. Crap, take it a step further and get the carbon piece that totally seals off the bottom of the entire engine bay. Let me know how it works out for you.

Just my dumb .02

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Flux &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

You are probably right. I need to figure out how to build one (a good one) or find somebody to build one for me... </TD></TR></TABLE>

Search in the RRAX forum. iirc there are more than a few topics about this and pics of splitters installed and results. Mostly constructed from cheap stuff from home depot with some pretty decent results.

The one Brando is thinking of is the Mugen front under tray. Not sure if it's still available but definitely is cost prohibitive and could be replicated for much cheaper.

Heck some I've seen are either aluminum, gutter guard and even particle board.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Haleiwa-Brando &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Look at the aerodynamic properties of the car as a whole instead of piece by piece. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks for your thoughts. Believe me, I am looking at the car as a whole. We could all do with more grip - one way to achieve this is to increase the downforce on the tires. To increase grip (downforce) to the rear tires I want to add the Mugen wing. Without doing something for the front of the car this increased grip in the rear will lead to increased understeer as the front tires have now signifigantly less grip.

And that leads me to the question I asked. I'm looking for some ways to add grip to the front tires (via downforce).

 

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=515644

BTW -- the undertray stuff was part of the Mugen JDM front end.

 

In basic explanation for "balancing out" any added downforce from the addition of the "Mugen" rear wing. As I understand it, similarly to the stock wing it performs it's duty under high speed braking situations for the most part when the front compresses and the rear does it's little light assed dance.

Keep us informed whatever way you go though.

My best cure as of late for a light or squirrely feeling rear end was a good alignment and working on cleaner corner entry.

your results may vary

 

Also keep in mind when adding downforce and totally depending on how and where it is added, your speeds and top speeds will become limited at some point very much like an F1 car where they may run more or less at specific tracks to achieve their desired goals. But they got Goo Gobbs more PoWa then us lowly honda 4 bangers.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Flux &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> To increase grip (downforce) to the rear tires I want to add the Mugen wing. Without doing something for the front of the car this increased grip in the rear will lead to increased understeer as the front tires have now signifigantly less grip. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The only thing I'd like to add or query is whether (sp?) the need for front/rear grip is at the same speed or different speeds.
That is to say low (or high) speed understeer vs. high or low speed oversteer (lack or rear grip/downforce).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1GreyTeg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">In basic explanation for "balancing out" any added downforce from the addition of the "Mugen" rear wing. As I understand it, similarly to the stock wing it performs it's duty under high speed braking situations for the most part when the front compresses and the rear does it's little light assed dance.

Keep us informed whatever way you go though.

My best cure as of late for a light or squirrely feeling rear end was a good alignment and working on cleaner corner entry.

your results may vary</TD></TR></TABLE>

Anton, so the Mugen wing doesn't actually create downforce? It must with the adjustable angle of that thing. I have no problems with a dancing rear-end under braking - I'm looking for more grip through the corners.

Maybe the mugen wing isn't what I need.. maybe this is:

 

LOL! Its all in the endplates!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Flux &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Anton, so the Mugen wing doesn't actually create downforce? It must with the adjustable angle of that thing. I have no problems with a dancing rear-end under braking - I'm looking for more grip through the corners.

Maybe the mugen wing isn't what I need.. maybe this is:

</TD></TR></TABLE>

No no I didn't say it didn't or won't create downforce, and I'm sure Ed can attest one way or the other.

What I meant is I think you're thinking along different lines of downforce than what the stock and or Mugen wing are created (or can provide) for IE high speed braking and the Mugen wing being adjustable.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zygspeed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">LOL! Its all in the endplates!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Joo meen sTiKaZ yO!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1GreyTeg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What I meant is I think you're thinking along different lines of downforce than what the stock and or Mugen wing are created (or can provide) for IE high speed braking and the Mugen wing being adjustable.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think you are right. I'm off to investigate an undertray/splitter...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1GreyTeg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Joo meen sTiKaZ yO! </TD></TR></TABLE>

Respectfully, ... I think not!
Though that car in the above pic(s) is quite virgin wrt stickarz.

Side note, I was contemplating a paint scheme for an ITR race car earlier today, and was thinking more along the BMW "art car" stuff, and in hindsight at this point that would be an additional benefit in that the StIcKarZ would be harder to distinguish, even though they would still be there for sanctioning body purposes.

 

I'm not one for bodykits but that INGS+1 kit is straight up hot sex

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Flux &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I have no problems with a dancing rear-end under braking - I'm looking for more grip through the corners.</TD></TR></TABLE>

In my opinion, and based on my personal experience:

"Grip in the corners" is far more related to tires, suspension, and driver than it is to aerodynamics, on our cars. The only reason to add downforce in the rear (of our cars, which are used for spirited track driving at best for the most part) is to control the high speed brake wiggle.

I've tracked my caR with no wing, stock wing, and the JDM Feels wing.

Edit: And I don't think the mugen wing will upset your balance if your car enough to warrant canards, aerodynamically speaking.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Flux &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Anton, so the Mugen wing doesn't actually create downforce? It must with the adjustable angle of that thing. I have no problems with a dancing rear-end under braking - I'm looking for more grip through the corners.

Maybe the mugen wing isn't what I need.. maybe this is:

</TD></TR></TABLE>

that car is HOT.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by answerx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">that car is HOT. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Thank You, you have contributed to this thread immeasurably!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Flux &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'm looking for more grip through the corners.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Do you tend to drive tracks where the corners are relatively high speed, 50 mph and higher?

In order to actually gain grip in corners at those speeds using aerodynamics, you are going to reduce the car's top speed on the straights.

If the corners you drive aren't high speed corners, then (IMHO) the project is probably not thoroughly well considered. Placing canards is problematic for us amatueurs because you need to place them in a way that you're improving your aerodynamics and not introducing downforce. It's not the easiest thing to eyeball.

Personally, I think that your high speed stability when going into threshold braking from, say, the 130-140 range, is helped first and best by making sure you have a suspension heavy duty enough that the front end does not nosedive as heavily. This means, of course, that you will have to install even heavier springs on the rear to keep the car rotating when you go into the corner.

The second best improvement to stability at these speeds is to make sure your suspension has a good alignment (with total thrust perfect). On a hybrid track/daily car, something like -1.5 on the rear camber and -2.5 on the front camber works well for stability and handling, and you might find that a little negative total toe on the rear helps your high pressure stability without hurting turn in (assuming a good suspension and thoroughly considered total suspension package).

You said you were mainly after better cornering, and I'd say the good suspension is the best aid for this, together with the negative camber on the biting side, and good R compounds that will accept and use the camber change (225-45-15?).

 

you can use the j's racing/first molding canard on the usdm front end
but it will block off the corner light little

i have custom CF canard on my car, they look like the APR canard
i can't tell the different with the canard until running on the hwy tho, the front end seems to be more stable with the canard after 130~140km/hr

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do you tend to drive tracks where the corners are relatively high speed, 50 mph and higher?</TD></TR></TABLE>

It varies of course, but yes - I experience high speed corners often enough.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">In order to actually gain grip in corners at those speeds using aerodynamics, you are going to reduce the car's top speed on the straights.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I understand this.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If the corners you drive aren't high speed corners, then (IMHO) the project is probably not thoroughly well considered. </TD></TR></TABLE>

There is no project, I am still in the consideration phase...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Personally, I think that your high speed stability when going into threshold braking from, say, the 130-140 range, is helped first and best by making sure you have a suspension heavy duty enough that the front end does not nosedive as heavily. This means, of course, that you will have to install even heavier springs on the rear to keep the car rotating when you go into the corner.

The second best improvement to stability at these speeds is to make sure your suspension has a good alignment (with total thrust perfect). On a hybrid track/daily car, something like -1.5 on the rear camber and -2.5 on the front camber works well for stability and handling, and you might find that a little negative total toe on the rear helps your high pressure stability without hurting turn in (assuming a good suspension and thoroughly considered total suspension package).

You said you were mainly after better cornering, and I'd say the good suspension is the best aid for this, together with the negative camber on the biting side, and good R compounds that will accept and use the camber change (225-45-15?).</TD></TR></TABLE>

George, no disrespect, but you are talking to me as if I am a newbie that has no idea what he is doing. I have plenty of track experience. As I said before, I am not looking to try and add more stability under braking. I already have a well-sorted suspension and tire package (this includes alignment) and I am looking at ways to get that little bit of extra grip (speed).

One nice way to get more grip out of your tires is to simply increase the amount of downforce on them - that is where this thinking began.