if my speakers say 50 watts rms and 150 peak, is it bad to keep cranking them to 100 watts with my amp which puts at 111wattsx4 rms?? is it bad for the speakers??

 

Simple answer yes.

The word "peak" is defined differently for each company. It is measured at some x frequency and for some x amount of time.

The values use are usually worthless in the real world just depends on the company. I have seen some measured at 75khz you cant even hear that high. the time is usually for less then a sec.

 

As long as its CLEAN power, (IE no distortion/clipping) then you should be okay. UNDER powering speakers is usually what kills them.

 

Although JDM_Ej is correct in saying under-powering the speakers is a bigger problem, and you are better off being overpowered, as long as you don't put that 111watts rms into the speakers continuously you should be fine, but if you crank the system up you will damage the speakers, and if the speakers go no biggy you can replace them with 100watt ones, what you have to be very careful of is not having the speakers short out when and/or if they blow, because that can take the amp along with them. 94

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDM_Ej &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As long as its CLEAN power, (IE no distortion/clipping) then you should be okay. UNDER powering speakers is usually what kills them. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Common misconseption. Over powering a speaker burns the voice coil.

What is referred to as under powering is when the amplifier exceeds its rated output and begins to clip. This cllipping puts out a DC voltage the resultant output is approx 2 times the rated output. So you are actually still overpowering the speaker.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxxtreme &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Common misconseption. Over powering a speaker burns the voice coil.

What is referred to as under powering is when the amplifier exceeds its rated output and begins to clip. This cllipping puts out a DC voltage the resultant output is approx 2 times the rated output. So you are actually still overpowering the speaker.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You just proved the point that signal distortion blows speakers...thank you...

So in other words... UNDER powering a speaker is more damaging. The fact it spikes the output higher has nothing to do with the phrase. If a 300W spike out of a 150w channel from an amp blows your speakers that can handle 250W, yes you had too much power going through them so they blew.

But you still hooked up a "150W amp" to a "250W" speaker...aka you UNDER powered it...

There is no debate that too much power destroys the speaker, but it's easier to keep the same power output clean when you "overpower" a speaker as opposed to "underpowering" one. (Assuming you watch your gains, crossovers, and equalization settings) Bottom line I can get the same sound output with MUCH less wear by getting an amp rated much higher than what I need. And if someone wants to try pushing the limits the limits are much higher with more power... *duh*...

 

Try and explain your reasoning with a 25 watt amplifier hooked up to a 300w speaker.

Overpowering is overpowering if you sent 300w to a 250 watt speaker it would still blow. The word "overpowering" means just that. So trying to redifine it to something that fits your needs doesn't work. It may work for you, but you will sound silly to everyone else.

Distortion does not blow speakers, (it depends on where that distortion comes from).

Failures in subwoofers are caused either by electrical and/or mechanical power handling issues. Electrical failure occurs when applying to much power to the subwoofer which causes the voice coil to burn.



Modified by nsxxtreme at 8:44 PM 8/2/2005

 

Maximum RMS Power Handling refers to the amount of power a speaker can handle on a continuous basis.


Peak power handling refers to the amount of power a speaker can handle during a brief musical burst.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxxtreme &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Failures in subwoofers are caused either by electrical and/or mechanical power handling issues. Electrical failure occurs when applying to much power to the subwoofer which causes the voice coil to burn.

Modified by nsxxtreme at 8:44 PM 8/2/2005</TD></TR></TABLE>

Okay...so where does this power come from? Ahh yes, the amp clipping, which comes from what? Signal distortion....

Also, by your apparent definition of over/underpowering...how would you explain hooking up a 1500Wrms amp to a sub with a rated rms handling of 400Wrms and it living hapily at high volumes for over a year of daily driving? Because that's my setup.

The reason that it's perfectly happy is because I have plenty of clean clear signal coming from the headunit, and low gain on the amp to match the input, which makes for a louder setup and happier subs and amp all around. The point is that while it is the POWER that kills the sub, 9 times out of 10 it was distortion in the signal to the sub that caused the spike in power. The 1 time out of 10 is someone putting massive power to the sub for too long of a period of time. Eventually the coil picks up too much heat and seperates. The distortion is waaay more common a reason though (volumemasters), so don't kid yourself... distortion -&gt; power spike = blown driver...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Phat_Jax &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Okay...so where does this power come from? Ahh yes, the amp clipping, which comes from what? Signal distortion....</TD></TR></TABLE>
There are many forms of distortion -
A weak radio station is a form of distortion.
A 25w amplifier that is clipping is distortion.
the list could go on and on, the point is distortion by itself does not blow speakers. Distortion that results in over powering a speaker will. But the key here is you are overpowering the speaker.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Phat_Jax &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also, by your apparent definition of over/underpowering...how would you explain hooking up a 1500Wrms amp to a sub with a rated rms handling of 400Wrms and it living hapily at high volumes for over a year of daily driving? Because that's my setup.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats a simple answer, even though your amplifier may be 1500 watts music is dynamic. Your not going to be sending 1500watts to the speaker. The moment you exceed 400w rms as in cranking the volume poof.

Its the same way a 150 watt amplifier can run a 400watt subwoofer for years. As long as you use it correctly.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Phat_Jax &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Okay...so where does this power come from? Ahh yes, the amp clipping, which comes from what? Signal distortion....

Also, by your apparent definition of over/underpowering...how would you explain hooking up a 1500Wrms amp to a sub with a rated rms handling of 400Wrms and it living hapily at high volumes for over a year of daily driving? Because that's my setup.

The reason that it's perfectly happy is because I have plenty of clean clear signal coming from the headunit, and low gain on the amp to match the input, which makes for a louder setup and happier subs and amp all around. The point is that while it is the POWER that kills the sub, 9 times out of 10 it was distortion in the signal to the sub that caused the spike in power. The 1 time out of 10 is someone putting massive power to the sub for too long of a period of time. Eventually the coil picks up too much heat and seperates. The distortion is waaay more common a reason though (volumemasters), so don't kid yourself... distortion -&gt; power spike = blown driver...</TD></TR></TABLE>Ditto that
Although nsxxtreme is correct about overpowering, and I would never recommend driving a 400W rms speaker with a 1500W rms amp, although if care was taken, it would work just fine, I would however recommend a 500W rms amp for the 400W speakers before I would recommend a 400W rms amp and never a less then 400W amp although nsxxtreme is also correct, you could run the 400W speakers with a 150W amp no problem, if care is taken.
However, in my experience, and that's over 30 years of it, by far the greater majority of blown speakers I have replaced, and that is more then 100 to 1, were the result of underpowered speakers, but not because the speakers were underpowered, but because the user drove the amp into clipping, [square wave].
Let me put it this way, a user is less likely to blow speakers if the system is overpowered then if it is underpowered, [over 30 years of experience tells me this]
Or how about this, underpowered systems blow more speakers then overpowered systems do. [again, experience tells me this]
Or how about, it makes no difference, as long as the user understands how to use the system, [experience also tells me, not likely]
Experience also tells me it does not matter what you do, a user or his/her buddy can and do blow speakers because they misuse the system. 94

 

The problem is if you talk like that people who don't understand what is going on will be confused one way or another. This is how these myths occur.

With any scientific method you have rules, it only takes one instance that doesn't hold true to invalidate a method. It doesn't matter if you have ten others that work, the one that fails invalidates it. My favorite myth, it's better to "overpower" then "underpower".

By continuing to go along with a "myth" doesn't make it anymore true it only helps to add to the confusion.

I can think of at least five different reasons why "underpowering" a speaker makes it blow isn't a correct statement. As well as the myth that "distortion" causes speakers to blow.
Other Engineers also agree

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxxtreme &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The problem is if you talk like that people who don't understand what is going on will be confused one way or another. This is how these myths occur.

With any scientific method you have rules, it only takes one instance that doesn't hold true to invalidate a method. It doesn't matter if you have ten others that work, the one that fails invalidates it. My favorite myth, it's better to "overpower" then "underpower".

By continuing to go along with a "myth" doesn't make it anymore true it only helps to add to the confusion.

I can think of at least five different reasons why "underpowering" a speaker makes it blow isn't a correct statement. As well as the myth that "distortion" causes speakers to blow.
Other Engineers also agree

</TD></TR></TABLE>I don't think I ever said undrpowering speakers will make them blow.
I said, it is my experience that underpowered systems blow more speakers then overpowered systems do.
And although I am not an engineer, I understand the the "rules"and the unbendeble laws of physics and all that "feldercarb" but I deal in the real world and this debate about underpowering and overpowering speakers has gone on for all of the over 30 years that I have been installing car audio and no matter what any engineer says that is not going to change the fact that the blown speakers that I have replaced over the years, and I said that is over 100 to 1, are from underpowered systems, [the amp rms wattage was less then the speakers continuas watt handeling] and on more then a few occasions when the amps have been replaced with "bigger" amps, [after the 2nd or 3rd set of blown speakers] the problem of blown speakers was no longer a problem, although as I said before, some users will blow speakers no matter what you do.
So myth or no myth or whether I add to the "confusion" or not I will continue to do what has worked so well over the years, [I will call it the lesser of 2 evils myth]
You are less likly to blow your speakers if they are overpowered then if they are underpowered . And no matter what the engeneers say, i bet i will have more installers agree with me then the engeneers. 94

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxxtreme &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The problem is if you talk like that people who don't understand what is going on will be confused one way or another. This is how these myths occur.

With any scientific method you have rules, it only takes one instance that doesn't hold true to invalidate a method. It doesn't matter if you have ten others that work, the one that fails invalidates it. My favorite myth, it's better to "overpower" then "underpower".

By continuing to go along with a "myth" doesn't make it anymore true it only helps to add to the confusion.

I can think of at least five different reasons why "underpowering" a speaker makes it blow isn't a correct statement. As well as the myth that "distortion" causes speakers to blow.
Other Engineers also agree </TD></TR></TABLE>


Yes, and the problem is that people who speak of *your* myth are the ones who scare people out of getting a 500W amp for a 400W sub because they are afraid of "overpowering" the driver. I've had my fair share of engineering courses, but common sense tells you that we are both saying the same thing different ways. Either way it is when the driver sees abuse that it gets destroyed, this abuse comes in the form of power.

In order to actually blow the sub, it is much more common for this power to come in the form of a power spike or surge compared to coming from a constant minor overpowering.

You reffered to the amp clipping, which in my (and apparently FCM's) experience is 99% of the time because someone tried to get more out of the amp than it is rated to give, or because they turned the volume **** up to the point where the head unit was putting out an unclean signal to begin with. This happens because someone is trying to drive a 500W sub with a 350W amp (or 150W in your example), and they turn up the gains on the amp and head unit until the sub no longer sees clean power.

Okay, so what about the person powering a 350W (or 150W) sub with a 500W amp? "Overpowering" you would say from your statements. But the user can now use less volume from the head unit, and much less gain on the amp level to maximize sound output and clarity, and virtually eliminate clipping and power spikes from reaching the speaker. Bottom line is you can do the same amount of output, with a cleaner sound and signal, while stressing the system components *less*.

In my comp vehicle I run drivers which are rated for only 60W continuous. However I am putting well over 200Wrms to each one (excl. rear-fill). Why am I doing this? Well it isn't to be loud, it's so that I can use less gain to achieve the same output.
This makes it sound a million times better as well because the signal reaching the speaker has been changed relatively little compared to if I was driving them with a smaller amplifier. This also guards against problems such as whine and speaker humming. You know what else? None of the components in my vehicle are ever working too hard. *sans the alternator*

PS: I have returned *ZERO* speakers to manufactuers out of my own vehicles in the last 6 years that were damaged using my methodology of "overpowering" my speakers (aka buying a big **** clean amp).

 

I bet you will have more installers agree with you, but all the engineers will come to the same conclusion. What you are saying is "somewhat correct" its the the way you say it that makes it wrong.

There is only one correct answer.

Just because you use a amplifier that is rated less then the speaker doesn't mean you are underpowering the speaker. It just means the speaker will never reach it's full potential. If you never turned the volume up that high the speaker could care less.

Now if you said using an amplifier that is rated approx 1/2 the speaker rms rating could blow the speaker if the the amp was pushed into clipping, because when clipping occurs the ouput power increases and "overpowers" the speaker you would be correct.

The same goes
If you use an amplifier that has a rated ouput more then the speakers rms rating, you will be fine as long as the rms output doesn't exceed the rating of the speaker.

Telling people that its better to overpower then underpower doesn't make sense and can lead to many different interpretations. If a manufacturer came out and said its better to overpower a speaker then underpower it. They would have a lot of returned speakers from the idots that try to run a 1000w amplifier on a 100w speaker at full volume.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Phat_Jax &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes, and the problem is that people who speak of *your* myth are the ones who scare people out of getting a 500W amp for a 400W sub because they are afraid of "overpowering" the driver.
</TD></TR></TABLE> I wouldn't call that overpowering.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Phat_Jax &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Okay, so what about the person powering a 350W (or 150W) sub with a 500W amp? "Overpowering" you would say from your statements. But the user can now use less volume from the head unit, and much less gain on the amp level to maximize sound output and clarity, and virtually eliminate clipping and power spikes from reaching the speaker. Bottom line is you can do the same amount of output, with a cleaner sound and signal, while stressing the system components *less*. </TD></TR></TABLE>No I wouldn't call that overpowering and that isn't the correct way to use gain. But that's another topic........

 

Well we do agree on one thing, we disagree. 94

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fcm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well we do agree on one thing, we disagree. 94</TD></TR></TABLE>
The day your held accountable for what you say, as in thousands or possibly millions of dollars can be lost, you may change the way you talk when speaking technically. Until then cheers

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxxtreme &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The day your held accountable for what you say, as in thousands or possibly millions of dollars can be lost, you may change the way you talk when speaking technically. Until then cheers</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well I don't think either of us were speaking too technically. We were speaking from experiences.

All I know is that my way is 100 times better than the other way, so that is just fine with me. I could care less about pulling out the meters and crap, I know what works and what doesn't.


And about the gains...I understand how gains are supposed to be used, I was referencing it for my particular competition setup. My sub outputs are measured because I am running 8 seperate amps and so I need the outputs to be the same and the proper ACV output. However there is one thing I learned in sq competition...you need a ton of votage on the signal line, and as little gain as possible. The rest can all be equalized out. Doing it my way gets you to world finals...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Phat_Jax &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And about the gains...I understand how gains are supposed to be used, I was referencing it for my particular competition setup. My sub outputs are measured because I am running 8 seperate amps and so I need the outputs to be the same and the proper ACV output. However there is one thing I learned in sq competition...you need a ton of votage on the signal line, and as little gain as possible. The rest can all be equalized out. Doing it my way gets you to world finals... </TD></TR></TABLE>
Not to beat a dead horse into the ground, but.................. If you understand gain then you relize an amplifier can be made not to clip.

So........................... If I took a 300w amplifier connected it to a 400w speaker adjusted my gain so the amplifier never clipped........ problem solved

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Phat_Jax &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">All I know is that my way is 100 times better than the other way, so that is just fine with me. I could care less about pulling out the meters and crap, I know what works and what doesn't.
</TD></TR></TABLE>I'm sure you do do, the people you tell this to will be misinformed though.

It shouldn't matter where your amplification is done. The less stages you have the less distortion you will have. The only thing I can think of that benefits you with having a higher output on the deck is, it is so much louder then the noise that may be on the line. High end home audio still uses what car audio would considers low voltages. A car is a noisy environment so it makes sense to have higher output voltages.

Voltage gain is defined as Vout/Vin if you don't have a large gain you wont have much of an output. Again I think you don't have a strong understanding of how this works. Not trying to be an @$$ here just trying to steer you in the right direction.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Phat_Jax &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
In my comp vehicle I run drivers which are rated for only 60W continuous. However I am putting well over 200Wrms to each one (excl. rear-fill). Why am I doing this? Well it isn't to be loud, it's so that I can use less gain to achieve the same output.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

you may want to throw a meter on your amp and see how much power you're actually putting out. while your amp may be rated at 200Wrms, music is also dynamic so unless you're listening to test tones as your drive down the street you're probably not going to see all that much power going to your drivers. i'm not saying you'll never hit 200W but when you do its probably for a short enough duration that it doesnt exceed the drivers peak power handling.