To all the wussies with an ATS 4.9 final.....
Thread Starter
I forgot more about hondas then you will ever know....
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,310
Likes: 1
From: hop,skip, and a jump from the city,, new friggin york, USA
To all the wussies with an ATS 4.9 final.....
just in case anyone is a wuss with their ATS final, i am selling a longer 5th gear (.787 vs stock .848). on my particular setup i got +8 mpg. below is the link. thanks for the space. this will not be bumped. 
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1251042
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1251042
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,136
Likes: 2
From: kuidaore
Re: To all the wussies with an ATS 4.9 final..... (AssPenny)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AssPenny »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The title should be more like:
To all the babies that cry about to high of an RPM in 5th with an ATS 4.9
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Just remember who's selling it
To all the babies that cry about to high of an RPM in 5th with an ATS 4.9
</TD></TR></TABLE>Just remember who's selling it
H-T Order of Merit
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 23,478
Likes: 2
From: Chicago
Re: To all the wussies with an ATS 4.9 final..... (Rodney)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rodney »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">this will not be bumped. </TD></TR></TABLE>
bump
</TD></TR></TABLE>bump
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 10,399
Likes: 3
From: Chicagoland, IL
Re: To all the wussies with an ATS 4.9 final..... (Rodney)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rodney »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">this will not be bumped. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Reverse psychology, hahaha
Higher final drive would be cool for Autocross, I just don't get it for any other purpose... if anything, I'd probably want a longer one and sacrifice first gear.
*shrug*
YMMV...
Chris
</TD></TR></TABLE>Reverse psychology, hahaha
Higher final drive would be cool for Autocross, I just don't get it for any other purpose... if anything, I'd probably want a longer one and sacrifice first gear.
*shrug*
YMMV...
Chris
Trending Topics
H-T Order of Merit
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 23,478
Likes: 2
From: Chicago
Re: To all the wussies with an ATS 4.9 final..... (Chris F)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Higher final drive would be cool for Autocross, I just don't get it for any other purpose...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Makes sense for the dragstrip, too...
Makes sense for the dragstrip, too...
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 10,399
Likes: 3
From: Chicagoland, IL
Re: To all the wussies with an ATS 4.9 final..... (nsxtasy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Makes sense for the dragstrip, too...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
You can drag race a FWD car?
-Chris
</TD></TR></TABLE>
You can drag race a FWD car?
-Chris
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,136
Likes: 2
From: kuidaore
Re: To all the wussies with an ATS 4.9 final..... (nsxtasy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Makes sense for the dragstrip, too...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Works well for all of us who track as well, including all of the Honda Challenge gents.
Makes sense for the dragstrip, too...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Works well for all of us who track as well, including all of the Honda Challenge gents.
H-T Order of Merit
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 23,478
Likes: 2
From: Chicago
Re: To all the wussies with an ATS 4.9 final..... (1GreyTeg)
Originally Posted by 1GreyTeg
Works well for all of us who track as well, including all of the Honda Challenge gents.
Many of us who track our cars on road courses would disagree with that statement. As I noted in this previous topic:
Originally Posted by nsxtasy
not for road course driving. Once you upshift to second, the main thing the 4.93 does for you is change your shift points. Sure, at the speeds where you are in the same gear with either FD, the 4.93 accelerates faster. But there are also speed ranges where the 4.93 forces you into a higher gear. And the stock FD in second gear accelerates faster than the 4.93 in third, just as the stock FD in third accelerates faster than the 4.93 in fourth, etc. Your overall acceleration is improved 0-30 or so, when both setups are in first gear, but after that - which is all you care about on a road course - it's going to hurt as much as it's going to help.
Originally Posted by nsxtasy
There is better acceleration with a shorter FD, but only as long as you are in the same gear with each setup. Here's why.
Most of our cars have a relatively flat torque curve. Acceleration is a function of torque at the wheels, which is torque at the crank times gearing (less drivetrain losses). In a nutshell - if you have shorter overall gearing, you have faster acceleration. So your point is correct, that shorter gearing means that the car accelerates faster... as long as you can remain in the same gear. However, as soon as the shorter gearing forces you to upshift, you are at a disadvantage because your overall gearing is actually longer.
For example, let's use the ITR as an example, with stock size (195/55-15) tires, taking deflection into account, assume we will accelerate to the 8400 RPM stock redline, and compare the stock gears with the stock FD (4.4) vs the ATS FD (4.928). We can calculate the total gearing (ratios of each of the regular five-speed gears times the ratio of the FD) at various road speeds. This will tell us which FD gives better acceleration, as follows:
0-35.6 mph: Stock FD first gear total gearing 14.21, ATS FD first gear total gearing 15.92, ATS is quicker (12 percent gearing advantage)
35.6-39.9 mph: Stock FD first gear total gearing 14.21, ATS FD second gear total gearing 10.37, Stock is quicker (37 percent gearing advantage)
39.9-54.7 mph: Stock FD second gear total gearing 9.26, ATS FD second gear total gearing 10.37, ATS is quicker (12 percent gearing advantage)
54.7-61.2 mph: Stock FD second gear total gearing 9.26, ATS FD third gear total gearing 7.19, Stock is quicker (29 percent gearing advantage)
61.2-78.9 mph: Stock FD third gear total gearing 6.42, ATS FD third gear total gearing 7.19, ATS is quicker (12 percent gearing advantage)
78.9-88.4 mph: Stock FD third gear total gearing 6.42, ATS FD fourth gear total gearing 5.46, Stock is quicker (18 percent gearing advantage)
88.4-104.0 mph: Stock FD fourth gear total gearing 4.87, ATS FD fourth gear total gearing 5.46, ATS is quicker (12 percent gearing advantage)
104.0-116.5 mph: Stock FD fourth gear total gearing 4.87, ATS FD fifth gear total gearing 4.18, Stock is quicker (17 percent gearing advantage)
116.5-135.7 mph: Stock FD fifth gear total gearing 3.73, ATS FD fifth gear total gearing 4.18, ATS is quicker (12 percent gearing advantage)
135.7-152.0 mph: Stock FD fifth gear total gearing 3.73, ATS FD exceeds redline, Stock is quicker
As you can see, when both FD ratios put you in the same gear with either setup, the shorter FD is faster. But at speeds where the shorter FD puts you into a higher gear, the stock FD is faster - considerably faster.
This is why the stock FD can be a big advantage on tracks where you spend a lot of time near redline, but the shorter FD can be a big advantage on tracks where you don't. So theoretically, if you were on a track where you spent the entire track driving between 79 and 88 mph, or between 88 and 104 mph, you would have a clear cut winner between the two gearing setups. However, most tracks have enough of a mix of speeds that you're probably going to be spending some time in the same gear, and some time in the higher gear, and the gains in one set of stretches will largely offset the losses in others.
For example, tom91ita mentioned Grattan, and driving most of the track (in his 1st gen CRX) in third with the longer (stock?) FD, but spending some time in fourth with the shorter FD. That's a typical scenario. On the stretches where you are in third gear with either setup, the shorter FD is quicker. On the stretches where the shorter FD forces you into fourth gear, the stock FD is quicker.
FWIW, in my ITR, I find that I can do a lot of Grattan in second gear - including the off-camber turn 3, the fast-turning stretch from the braking zone after the jump to turn 7, and the toilet bowl. On those stretches, a shorter FD will require the use of third gear in those turns, and possibly fourth gear elsewhere, and it would be a disadvantage in those areas. In the areas where you would be in third gear in either setup, it would be an advantage.
Incidentally, on a dragstrip, the shorter FD is more consistently an advantage, because of the large amount of time you would be in first gear, and in second gear, with either setup. In our ITR example, from 0 to 55 mph, the shorter FD is a significant advantage most of the time; however, above 55 mph (where you spend road course time) the advantage swaps back and forth between the two setups, depending on the road speed.
Most of our cars have a relatively flat torque curve. Acceleration is a function of torque at the wheels, which is torque at the crank times gearing (less drivetrain losses). In a nutshell - if you have shorter overall gearing, you have faster acceleration. So your point is correct, that shorter gearing means that the car accelerates faster... as long as you can remain in the same gear. However, as soon as the shorter gearing forces you to upshift, you are at a disadvantage because your overall gearing is actually longer.
For example, let's use the ITR as an example, with stock size (195/55-15) tires, taking deflection into account, assume we will accelerate to the 8400 RPM stock redline, and compare the stock gears with the stock FD (4.4) vs the ATS FD (4.928). We can calculate the total gearing (ratios of each of the regular five-speed gears times the ratio of the FD) at various road speeds. This will tell us which FD gives better acceleration, as follows:
0-35.6 mph: Stock FD first gear total gearing 14.21, ATS FD first gear total gearing 15.92, ATS is quicker (12 percent gearing advantage)
35.6-39.9 mph: Stock FD first gear total gearing 14.21, ATS FD second gear total gearing 10.37, Stock is quicker (37 percent gearing advantage)
39.9-54.7 mph: Stock FD second gear total gearing 9.26, ATS FD second gear total gearing 10.37, ATS is quicker (12 percent gearing advantage)
54.7-61.2 mph: Stock FD second gear total gearing 9.26, ATS FD third gear total gearing 7.19, Stock is quicker (29 percent gearing advantage)
61.2-78.9 mph: Stock FD third gear total gearing 6.42, ATS FD third gear total gearing 7.19, ATS is quicker (12 percent gearing advantage)
78.9-88.4 mph: Stock FD third gear total gearing 6.42, ATS FD fourth gear total gearing 5.46, Stock is quicker (18 percent gearing advantage)
88.4-104.0 mph: Stock FD fourth gear total gearing 4.87, ATS FD fourth gear total gearing 5.46, ATS is quicker (12 percent gearing advantage)
104.0-116.5 mph: Stock FD fourth gear total gearing 4.87, ATS FD fifth gear total gearing 4.18, Stock is quicker (17 percent gearing advantage)
116.5-135.7 mph: Stock FD fifth gear total gearing 3.73, ATS FD fifth gear total gearing 4.18, ATS is quicker (12 percent gearing advantage)
135.7-152.0 mph: Stock FD fifth gear total gearing 3.73, ATS FD exceeds redline, Stock is quicker
As you can see, when both FD ratios put you in the same gear with either setup, the shorter FD is faster. But at speeds where the shorter FD puts you into a higher gear, the stock FD is faster - considerably faster.
This is why the stock FD can be a big advantage on tracks where you spend a lot of time near redline, but the shorter FD can be a big advantage on tracks where you don't. So theoretically, if you were on a track where you spent the entire track driving between 79 and 88 mph, or between 88 and 104 mph, you would have a clear cut winner between the two gearing setups. However, most tracks have enough of a mix of speeds that you're probably going to be spending some time in the same gear, and some time in the higher gear, and the gains in one set of stretches will largely offset the losses in others.
For example, tom91ita mentioned Grattan, and driving most of the track (in his 1st gen CRX) in third with the longer (stock?) FD, but spending some time in fourth with the shorter FD. That's a typical scenario. On the stretches where you are in third gear with either setup, the shorter FD is quicker. On the stretches where the shorter FD forces you into fourth gear, the stock FD is quicker.
FWIW, in my ITR, I find that I can do a lot of Grattan in second gear - including the off-camber turn 3, the fast-turning stretch from the braking zone after the jump to turn 7, and the toilet bowl. On those stretches, a shorter FD will require the use of third gear in those turns, and possibly fourth gear elsewhere, and it would be a disadvantage in those areas. In the areas where you would be in third gear in either setup, it would be an advantage.
Incidentally, on a dragstrip, the shorter FD is more consistently an advantage, because of the large amount of time you would be in first gear, and in second gear, with either setup. In our ITR example, from 0 to 55 mph, the shorter FD is a significant advantage most of the time; however, above 55 mph (where you spend road course time) the advantage swaps back and forth between the two setups, depending on the road speed.
Originally Posted by 1GreyTeg
Let's just leave this alone and say that if you are interested in the mod, do thorough research?
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=241652
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=746641
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 10,399
Likes: 3
From: Chicagoland, IL
Re: To all the wussies with an ATS 4.9 final..... (1GreyTeg)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1GreyTeg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Works well for all of us who track as well, including all of the Honda Challenge gents.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Hahaha... sorry Anton. I started it this time.
I'm on Ken's side of this one, but with the same caveats that it depends entirely on your exit speeds out of various corners at the specific track, or the top speed/shift points at an autocross.
-Chris
Hahaha... sorry Anton. I started it this time.
I'm on Ken's side of this one, but with the same caveats that it depends entirely on your exit speeds out of various corners at the specific track, or the top speed/shift points at an autocross.
-Chris
Paragraph Alert
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 5,558
Likes: 2
From: Oil rig, middle of the ocean
Re: To all the wussies with an ATS 4.9 final..... (JDMitr54)
Um, Nsxtasy your post just showed how dominatingly better the 4.9 final drive is for acceleration. Nobody coasts on a track so the " the stock FD can be better when close to redline" arguement makes little sense.
Of course the stock FD in a LOWER gear will be better than the an ATS car in a higher gear but for only a very brief span of mph. The flaw in this is since the ATS will have already accelerated faster up to this point by the time you reach the point of advantage with the stock FD the momentary advantage it theortically had would barely exsist.
Take your first gear calculation. Sure if they both got to 35mph at the same time then when the ATS shifted it would lose the advantage, however it will reach 35mph quicker AND IS ALREADY ACCELERATING in 2nd gear as the stock FD reaches the point of advantage. By that time the stock FD will only have a split second of an advantage before the ATS once again dominates.
Of course **** points due to course design is an issue but it doesn't change the fact that gearing multiplies your torque. The more torque multiplication the faster you can accelerate.
Of course the stock FD in a LOWER gear will be better than the an ATS car in a higher gear but for only a very brief span of mph. The flaw in this is since the ATS will have already accelerated faster up to this point by the time you reach the point of advantage with the stock FD the momentary advantage it theortically had would barely exsist.
Take your first gear calculation. Sure if they both got to 35mph at the same time then when the ATS shifted it would lose the advantage, however it will reach 35mph quicker AND IS ALREADY ACCELERATING in 2nd gear as the stock FD reaches the point of advantage. By that time the stock FD will only have a split second of an advantage before the ATS once again dominates.
Of course **** points due to course design is an issue but it doesn't change the fact that gearing multiplies your torque. The more torque multiplication the faster you can accelerate.
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 10,399
Likes: 3
From: Chicagoland, IL
Re: To all the wussies with an ATS 4.9 final..... (ActiveAero)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ActiveAero »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Um, Nsxtasy your post just showed how dominatingly better the 4.9 final drive is for acceleration. Nobody coasts on a track so the " the stock FD can be better when close to redline" arguement makes little sense.</TD></TR></TABLE>
He isn't arguing about drag racing, he's arguing about track.
If you're exiting a corner at 65 MPH, in 3rd gear with a 4.9 FD or OEM, the 4.9 will win in acceleration at that point.
If you exit a different corner at 80 MPH, the OEM FD will win in 3rd gear, versus the 4.9 FD in 4th gear.
He also goes on to state,
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by keN SaX »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Incidentally, on a dragstrip, the shorter FD is more consistently an advantage, because of the large amount of time you would be in first gear, and in second gear, with either setup. In our ITR example, from 0 to 55 mph, the shorter FD is a significant advantage most of the time; however, above 55 mph (where you spend road course time) the advantage swaps back and forth between the two setups, depending on the road speed.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
He isn't arguing about drag racing, he's arguing about track.
If you're exiting a corner at 65 MPH, in 3rd gear with a 4.9 FD or OEM, the 4.9 will win in acceleration at that point.
If you exit a different corner at 80 MPH, the OEM FD will win in 3rd gear, versus the 4.9 FD in 4th gear.
He also goes on to state,
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by keN SaX »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Incidentally, on a dragstrip, the shorter FD is more consistently an advantage, because of the large amount of time you would be in first gear, and in second gear, with either setup. In our ITR example, from 0 to 55 mph, the shorter FD is a significant advantage most of the time; however, above 55 mph (where you spend road course time) the advantage swaps back and forth between the two setups, depending on the road speed.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
H-T Order of Merit
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 23,478
Likes: 2
From: Chicago
Re: To all the wussies with an ATS 4.9 final..... (ActiveAero)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ActiveAero »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Um, Nsxtasy your post just showed how dominatingly better the 4.9 final drive is for acceleration. Nobody coasts on a track so the " the stock FD can be better when close to redline" arguement makes little sense.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes, nobody coasts on the track; you have the accelerator floored a lot of the time. That's how you use your maximum acceleration. What you are forgetting is that when the stock FD is close to redline, the short FD is not because it's in a higher gear - and the overall gearing and acceleration are better when the stock FD is in a lower gear than the short FD. Assuming, of course, that you have the accelerator floored.
I don't think you really understand what I said, because you apparently don't realize that "the stock FD being close to redline" happens where "the stock FD being in a lower gear", where its acceleration is superior.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ActiveAero »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Of course the stock FD in a LOWER gear will be better than the an ATS car in a higher gear but for only a very brief span of mph.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Actually, it's often not that brief. The actual ranges of mph are in my quote above: 35.6-39.9 mph, 54.7-61.2 mph, 78.9-88.4 mph, 104.0-116.5 mph, and 135.7-152.0 mph. In the 80-120 mph range, which is where you spend most of your time on most tracks, the speed ranges which favor the stock FD are actually wider than the speed ranges which favor the short FD. (But again, it can vary from one track to another; some tracks can favor one setup, and others the other.)
Furthermore, the gearing advantage of the stock FD within those ranges is 17-37 percent, which is always MUCH greater than the gearing advantage of the short FD in other speed ranges (which is always the ratio between the two FDs, 12 percent).
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ActiveAero »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Take your first gear calculation. Sure if they both got to 35mph at the same time then when the ATS shifted it would lose the advantage, however it will reach 35mph quicker AND IS ALREADY ACCELERATING in 2nd gear as the stock FD reaches the point of advantage. By that time the stock FD will only have a split second of an advantage before the ATS once again dominates.</TD></TR></TABLE>
First gear and 35 mph are irrelevant to every track I've driven on. Sure, they matter on the dragstrip, where the short FD is an advantage. But not on the track.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ActiveAero »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Of course **** points due to course design is an issue but it doesn't change the fact that gearing multiplies your torque. The more torque multiplication the faster you can accelerate.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Absolutely. When the overall gearing is shorter, acceleration is faster - and the overall gearing is the product of the final drive and the individual gears. This is exactly why the stock FD is faster than the short FD at some speeds, and why the short FD is faster than stock at others.
Yes, nobody coasts on the track; you have the accelerator floored a lot of the time. That's how you use your maximum acceleration. What you are forgetting is that when the stock FD is close to redline, the short FD is not because it's in a higher gear - and the overall gearing and acceleration are better when the stock FD is in a lower gear than the short FD. Assuming, of course, that you have the accelerator floored.
I don't think you really understand what I said, because you apparently don't realize that "the stock FD being close to redline" happens where "the stock FD being in a lower gear", where its acceleration is superior.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ActiveAero »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Of course the stock FD in a LOWER gear will be better than the an ATS car in a higher gear but for only a very brief span of mph.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Actually, it's often not that brief. The actual ranges of mph are in my quote above: 35.6-39.9 mph, 54.7-61.2 mph, 78.9-88.4 mph, 104.0-116.5 mph, and 135.7-152.0 mph. In the 80-120 mph range, which is where you spend most of your time on most tracks, the speed ranges which favor the stock FD are actually wider than the speed ranges which favor the short FD. (But again, it can vary from one track to another; some tracks can favor one setup, and others the other.)
Furthermore, the gearing advantage of the stock FD within those ranges is 17-37 percent, which is always MUCH greater than the gearing advantage of the short FD in other speed ranges (which is always the ratio between the two FDs, 12 percent).
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ActiveAero »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Take your first gear calculation. Sure if they both got to 35mph at the same time then when the ATS shifted it would lose the advantage, however it will reach 35mph quicker AND IS ALREADY ACCELERATING in 2nd gear as the stock FD reaches the point of advantage. By that time the stock FD will only have a split second of an advantage before the ATS once again dominates.</TD></TR></TABLE>
First gear and 35 mph are irrelevant to every track I've driven on. Sure, they matter on the dragstrip, where the short FD is an advantage. But not on the track.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ActiveAero »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Of course **** points due to course design is an issue but it doesn't change the fact that gearing multiplies your torque. The more torque multiplication the faster you can accelerate.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Absolutely. When the overall gearing is shorter, acceleration is faster - and the overall gearing is the product of the final drive and the individual gears. This is exactly why the stock FD is faster than the short FD at some speeds, and why the short FD is faster than stock at others.
New User
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 967
Likes: 0
From: Canada
Re: To all the wussies with an ATS 4.9 final..... (nsxtasy)
I have the 4.9 with a GSR 5th gear and i like it. Mind you i spend a lot of time on the highway, and my car has yet to see a track. For all around savings of wear and tear and better fuel economy ( gas is getting close to $5.00 a gallon out here..)
you can't beat it.
My guess is that a GSR 5th gear with the 4.9 pulls as hard in 5th as the stock tranny does in 5th, and the rpm doesn't fall out of VTEC during the 4th to 5th gear change, so tell me again what my disadvantage is?
you can't beat it.
My guess is that a GSR 5th gear with the 4.9 pulls as hard in 5th as the stock tranny does in 5th, and the rpm doesn't fall out of VTEC during the 4th to 5th gear change, so tell me again what my disadvantage is?
H-T Order of Merit
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 23,478
Likes: 2
From: Chicago
Re: To all the wussies with an ATS 4.9 final..... (lotus)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by lotus »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My guess is that a GSR 5th gear with the 4.9 pulls as hard in 5th as the stock tranny does in 5th</TD></TR></TABLE>
The stock GS-R fifth has a 0.787 ratio, so with the 4.93 FD, the total gearing is 3.88. This is slightly shorter than the stock USM fifth (0.848) with the stock FD (4.4), which has a total gearing of 3.73, so yes, it pulls slightly harder.
The stock GS-R fifth has a 0.787 ratio, so with the 4.93 FD, the total gearing is 3.88. This is slightly shorter than the stock USM fifth (0.848) with the stock FD (4.4), which has a total gearing of 3.73, so yes, it pulls slightly harder.
Paragraph Alert
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 5,558
Likes: 2
From: Oil rig, middle of the ocean
Re: To all the wussies with an ATS 4.9 final..... (nsxtasy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yes, nobody coasts on the track; you have the accelerator floored a lot of the time. That's how you use your maximum acceleration. What you are forgetting is that when the stock FD is close to redline, the short FD is not because it's in a higher gear - and the overall gearing and acceleration are better when the stock FD is in a lower gear than the short FD. Assuming, of course, that you have the accelerator floored.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
But the reason you are in a higher gear is because you have already accelerated through the lower one AND at a faster rate. The stock FD will have to play catch up to the ATS and it better do it before the ATS's advantage takes over again.
What about the other advantages of the ATS such as not always having to downshift into some corners or corners where both FD's wouldn't require it but land you in the same gear thus giving the ATS the corner exit advantage?
I read through that other thread I didn't see anything to suggest most road racers prefer the stock FD. Jason Franza sure as heck liked his and he seemed to know what he was doing.
Modified by ActiveAero at 10:49 AM 5/20/2005
Yes, nobody coasts on the track; you have the accelerator floored a lot of the time. That's how you use your maximum acceleration. What you are forgetting is that when the stock FD is close to redline, the short FD is not because it's in a higher gear - and the overall gearing and acceleration are better when the stock FD is in a lower gear than the short FD. Assuming, of course, that you have the accelerator floored.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
But the reason you are in a higher gear is because you have already accelerated through the lower one AND at a faster rate. The stock FD will have to play catch up to the ATS and it better do it before the ATS's advantage takes over again.
What about the other advantages of the ATS such as not always having to downshift into some corners or corners where both FD's wouldn't require it but land you in the same gear thus giving the ATS the corner exit advantage?
I read through that other thread I didn't see anything to suggest most road racers prefer the stock FD. Jason Franza sure as heck liked his and he seemed to know what he was doing.
Modified by ActiveAero at 10:49 AM 5/20/2005
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 10,399
Likes: 3
From: Chicagoland, IL
Re: To all the wussies with an ATS 4.9 final..... (ActiveAero)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ActiveAero »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But the reason you are in a higher gear is because you have already accelerated through the lower one AND at a faster rate. </TD></TR></TABLE>
That's NOT always true on a track. On a track, if you exit a corner at 80, the OEM gearing in 3rd is better than the ATS gearing in 4th. You DIDN'T just accelerate through all the gears, you just got done braking, downshifting, cornering, and at the track out you want as much power as you can put down to the wheels.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ActiveAero »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What about the other advantages of the ATS such as not always having to downshift into some corners or corners where both FD's wouldn't require it but land you in the same gear thus giving the ATS the corner exit advantage?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Depending on the corner exit speeds the ATS can an advantage, for sure. On other corners it will be a disadvantage. If you enter a braking zone at 110 or so, the ATS required you to be in 5th gear, but the OEM gears will let you do the same speed in 4th. So, on that previous straightaway, you may have only had to do one shift as opposed to 2 with the ATS FD.
You could VERY easily make counterpoints and examples where the ATS is better. That's what nsxtasy and I are trying to say, that it depends on the course, and the speeds of the car at various points on the track.
If I was in a race class with a standing start, and I wanted better gearing in first/second gears to get an extra car length ahead of the guy next to me, a FD is a good way to get there, and that would be a consistent advantage over the OEM FD. Other than that particular case, you're rolling the dice as to which gearing will work best for any particular corner or straightaway.
ChrIsTopheR Fries ()
Modified by Chris F at 7:52 AM 5/20/2005
That's NOT always true on a track. On a track, if you exit a corner at 80, the OEM gearing in 3rd is better than the ATS gearing in 4th. You DIDN'T just accelerate through all the gears, you just got done braking, downshifting, cornering, and at the track out you want as much power as you can put down to the wheels.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ActiveAero »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What about the other advantages of the ATS such as not always having to downshift into some corners or corners where both FD's wouldn't require it but land you in the same gear thus giving the ATS the corner exit advantage?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Depending on the corner exit speeds the ATS can an advantage, for sure. On other corners it will be a disadvantage. If you enter a braking zone at 110 or so, the ATS required you to be in 5th gear, but the OEM gears will let you do the same speed in 4th. So, on that previous straightaway, you may have only had to do one shift as opposed to 2 with the ATS FD.
You could VERY easily make counterpoints and examples where the ATS is better. That's what nsxtasy and I are trying to say, that it depends on the course, and the speeds of the car at various points on the track.
If I was in a race class with a standing start, and I wanted better gearing in first/second gears to get an extra car length ahead of the guy next to me, a FD is a good way to get there, and that would be a consistent advantage over the OEM FD. Other than that particular case, you're rolling the dice as to which gearing will work best for any particular corner or straightaway.
ChrIsTopheR Fries (
)Modified by Chris F at 7:52 AM 5/20/2005
Rather OG
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,179
Likes: 0
From: Greensboro, NC
Re: To all the wussies with an ATS 4.9 final..... (Chris F)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Depending on the corner exit speeds the ATS can an advantage, for sure. On other corners it will be a disadvantage. If you enter a corner at 110 or so, the ATS required you to be in 5th gear, but the OEM gears will let you do the same speed in 4th. So, on that previous straightaway, you may have only had to do one shift as opposed to 2 with the ATS FD.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Huh? Well, that argument is true for anything car-related (suspension, sways, drivetrain, etc). I have yet to be at a track where the ATS was of any hindrance. It has ALWAYS been an advantage in my experiences. Chances are, that if you're going fast enough to take a corner (with the 4.4/OEM FD) in the upper band of 4th, you could probably go through it in 5th instead. Thus, eliminating ANY shifting in pre/post-turn/on the straight. Yeah, it might be scarier the first few times, but after that, whoa baby!!!
For instance, the chute at Summit. Skeptics may say "you can't go through there in 5th". How about turn 10 (the blind downhill left-hander post-esses) at VIR full? Same thing. That said, if you mess up, you'll probably be in worse shape than if you were in 4th, but...
The USDM stock FD sucks
Just stating my opinion, of course
Huh? Well, that argument is true for anything car-related (suspension, sways, drivetrain, etc). I have yet to be at a track where the ATS was of any hindrance. It has ALWAYS been an advantage in my experiences. Chances are, that if you're going fast enough to take a corner (with the 4.4/OEM FD) in the upper band of 4th, you could probably go through it in 5th instead. Thus, eliminating ANY shifting in pre/post-turn/on the straight. Yeah, it might be scarier the first few times, but after that, whoa baby!!!
For instance, the chute at Summit. Skeptics may say "you can't go through there in 5th". How about turn 10 (the blind downhill left-hander post-esses) at VIR full? Same thing. That said, if you mess up, you'll probably be in worse shape than if you were in 4th, but...
The USDM stock FD sucks
Just stating my opinion, of course
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 10,399
Likes: 3
From: Chicagoland, IL
Re: To all the wussies with an ATS 4.9 final..... (Jason Franza)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jason Franza »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Huh? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Edited. Meant to say entering a braking zone at 110, you would have shifted to 5th with the ATS FD.
I have yet to have been at a track where the OEM gearing was a hinderance. If I start bogging in a gear around a corner, I just drive it faster. Same logic, different gear.
-Chris
Edited. Meant to say entering a braking zone at 110, you would have shifted to 5th with the ATS FD.
I have yet to have been at a track where the OEM gearing was a hinderance. If I start bogging in a gear around a corner, I just drive it faster.
Same logic, different gear.-Chris
H-T Order of Merit
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 23,478
Likes: 2
From: Chicago
Re: To all the wussies with an ATS 4.9 final..... (ActiveAero)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ActiveAero »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But the reason you are in a higher gear is because you have already accelerated through the lower one AND at a faster rate.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Not necessarily. You are assuming that the two setups were both in the same gear through the corner (in which case, the short FD has the advantage). That's not always true. At some corners, you will be forced to use a higher gear with the short FD, in which case, the stock FD has the advantage.
Because each FD has an advantage in certain "speed bands", specified above, there are some corners where one FD will be an advantage, and others where the other will be quicker. Pick a high-speed corner where you think one FD has an advantage, and then look at a corner that is 10-15 mph faster or slower (that's about the width of those speed bands) and you'll find that the other FD has the advantage. You can't make a statement that one will always be quicker through every corner, because that just isn't true. A particular track may give an advantage to one setup OR the other, depending on how many corners give the acceleration advantage to each setup. So some tracks will be better with one FD, others with the other.
I've been very happy with the stock FD. It's better at some tracks than at others, which is true of any gearing setup. Then again, I don't go to the dragstrip, where it will always be an advantage (this is where ActiveAero's point about having started with greater acceleration is always correct, since both setups start out at 0 mph in first gear).
Not necessarily. You are assuming that the two setups were both in the same gear through the corner (in which case, the short FD has the advantage). That's not always true. At some corners, you will be forced to use a higher gear with the short FD, in which case, the stock FD has the advantage.
Because each FD has an advantage in certain "speed bands", specified above, there are some corners where one FD will be an advantage, and others where the other will be quicker. Pick a high-speed corner where you think one FD has an advantage, and then look at a corner that is 10-15 mph faster or slower (that's about the width of those speed bands) and you'll find that the other FD has the advantage. You can't make a statement that one will always be quicker through every corner, because that just isn't true. A particular track may give an advantage to one setup OR the other, depending on how many corners give the acceleration advantage to each setup. So some tracks will be better with one FD, others with the other.
I've been very happy with the stock FD. It's better at some tracks than at others, which is true of any gearing setup. Then again, I don't go to the dragstrip, where it will always be an advantage (this is where ActiveAero's point about having started with greater acceleration is always correct, since both setups start out at 0 mph in first gear).
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 30,826
Likes: 0
From: RIP Craig Jones
Re: To all the wussies with an ATS 4.9 final..... (nsxtasy)
You can have all the mental masturbation you want about whats good where at what tracks at which speeds, but at the end of the day i'd put $100 on the ATS 4.9 turning better laptimes than the stock 4.4 or JDM 4.7 on any road course.
It may have some slight disadvantages in some corners, but the advantages far outweigh it. If you're at a speed/point where the lower gear + stock final drive is an advantage, you probably ought to be in the next higher gear to eliminate a shift anyways.
RJ - has a 4.9 on the way for his new project, and think ken spends waaaaaay too much time and thought on this issue with spreadsheets - drive it and compare, spreadsheets dont equal laptimes.
It may have some slight disadvantages in some corners, but the advantages far outweigh it. If you're at a speed/point where the lower gear + stock final drive is an advantage, you probably ought to be in the next higher gear to eliminate a shift anyways.
RJ - has a 4.9 on the way for his new project, and think ken spends waaaaaay too much time and thought on this issue with spreadsheets - drive it and compare, spreadsheets dont equal laptimes.