I did my first autocross today with ETR #68 at the Oak Ridge Mall.

It was cold and raining but I had a good time.

My car is a 96 Civic DX hatchback, bone stock engine (exhaust, everything), CTR shocks/springs, CTR brakes, Slipstreams w/Azenis. I ran in Street Modified Novice.

Other than the rear end bouncing upon oversteer (not enough air in rear tires) the car was good, real good.

My question is about my steering inputs, here is a quick paint file of the corner in question.


The red x is where my problem is.
Aftergetting the car turned without oversteering it and spinning as a lot of cars did, I found that my wheel was turned full lock to the right. With the position of the box, this threw me to the right (left in pic) and threw me way off my intended line, so that I actually had to "turn" through the box versus drive "straight" through it. I tried correcting this with my last 2 runs. The first of which I oversteered and had to correct, the second of which I took too slow as if I was just out on a cruise.

Does the problem lie in my entry or is it simply my input (amount of input or duration, etc.)?

 

I'm no expert, but possibly try lifting as you're going around the corner, but modulate it as to get the back to come around a bit, this I believe is called "throttle oversteer" I've used it before, to get myself setup for the next corner. My experience is on a racetrack however, so I'm not sure how accurate this info is. Just my .02

 

Thats what I did. The first time was too much lift and it started to spin but I saved it. Second time was just bleh slow. Maybe the fastest way through is hugging the inside and swinging wide once you apex, then cutting back in for the box. If that is the best way then I couldn't catch it. I tried it on my second run and there wasn't enough room for me to slow down without the back end kicking itself out.

 

slow in, fast out.

 

sounds like a classic case of understeer on corner exit. hard to say if the problem lies with your entry speed, your corner exit style, or some combination. the one thing i can tell you that will ALWAYS help is that you should be looking at the entrance to that chicago box before/as you initiate the right hand turn before it. (glace over several times as you approach the corner, then once you commit to the corner you should be looking up and through the chicago box) by simply doing that you will have a better idea where the car should be at the exit and your brain will automatically adjust your speed a little more accurately so that the car will go were you want it to. if you had a vid i could comment more on your technique, but in the absence of that, make sure you ask to have an instructor ride with you at the next event. actually, an instructor riding with you will be even more helpful then someone commenting on a vid, so definately do that.

nate

 

I believe its a line problem. Notice how the radius of your arc keeps getting less and less as the corner progresses. You are basically pinching your exit because you turned in to soon. Try a more constant arc by waiting patiently before turning in. By looking to where your X is before entering the corner you will have a better chance of approaching this ideal line. The key is to get your turning done soon but not to tighten up at the end of the turn.




regards,
alan


Modified by 00R101 at 7:40 PM 2/21/2005

 

The chicago box is a slow point anyways, so you could have come out of that and jogged over to the right to get a wider, smoother, faster path through that curve.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fireant &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The chicago box is a slow point anyways, so you could have come out of that and jogged over to the right to get a wider, smoother, faster path through that curve.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's the same thing I was thinking. Why not fade more to the right, after the chicago box, so you end up quite a bit to the right of your X, so you can late apex the left hander and maximize your speed through the following straight?

 

well, if that were the direction the course went, yeah, that would work. if you read again real careful (it's confusing the way it was written) the right hander precedes the chicago box, not the other way around.

nate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PSUCRX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm no expert, but possibly try lifting as you're going around the corner, but modulate it as to get the back to come around a bit, this I believe is called "throttle oversteer" I've used it before, to get myself setup for the next corner. My experience is on a racetrack however, so I'm not sure how accurate this info is. Just my .02</TD></TR></TABLE>

Just to clarify - lifting to cause oversteer is called lift oversteer. Throttle oversteer is applying more throttle to induce oversteer (read: drift) and is really only practical in RWD and AWD cars (at least as far as I know).

- Scott

 

I agree with the line theory. Sounds like you took an early apex and had to cook the front tires to try to complete the turn.

It seems counterintuitive at first, but sometimes by waiting to turn-in, you actually end up making it easier for yourself through all parts of the corner. The way you went has you doing very little cornering at the beginning, then you had to do 80% of the actual turning right around the last cone. Wait a bit so you can get a nice sizable steering angle(not full lock as you obviously found out) and try to keep that constant throughout the corner. When you're first starting out this will get you going much faster.

I think if you try to visualize this while walking the course and use it while driving, you'll find you're going through corners with much less drama at the apex and corner exit and are faster overall as a result.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00R101 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">



regards,
alan

Modified by 00R101 at 7:40 PM 2/21/2005</TD></TR></TABLE>

I dunno how much I like that either, but it's better than the original. Here's my 2c.



This line takes advantage of the fact that you're already going slower coming out of the box. No sense in getting on the gas after the box only to brake and early apex no matter how wide you go mid turn or through the exit. The line I drew (poorly) puts you into a much better position to be on the gas much earlier compared to your first line. If the slower box wasn't in front of the corner entry I might feel differently.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by travis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I dunno how much I like that either, but it's better than the original. Here's my 2c.



This line takes advantage of the fact that you're already going slower coming out of the box. No sense in getting on the gas after the box only to brake and early apex no matter how wide you go mid turn or through the exit. The line I drew (poorly) puts you into a much better position to be on the gas much earlier compared to your first line. If the slower box wasn't in front of the corner entry I might feel differently.</TD></TR></TABLE>

it looks like you are interpreting his picture backwards - From his descriptin he is entering the picture from the top, going through the "hairpin" at the top of the drawing, then through the box - there should have been an arrow to show direction of travel.

I would (in my AWD car, so YMMV) stay very wide coming into the hairpin, then turn in HARD, and dail out steering as I passed the last cone, this gives you a straighter shot at the box, and you don't find yourself turned to full lock when you should be traveling straight - basically what i think you are doing is turning in too early, causing you to apex WAY early, and then straightening the wheel too late - the first modified diagram is closer to what i would suggest, only exaggerated even more to get a straighter shot at the box.

I have a friend who does the exact same thing, she hugs the inside of the corner at the entrance and finds herself using WAY too much steering to get through the corner, and unable to straighten the wheel in time.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Safir &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

it looks like you are interpreting his picture backwards - From his descriptin he is entering the picture from the top, going through the "hairpin" at the top of the drawing, then through the box - there should have been an arrow to show direction of travel.

I would (in my AWD car, so YMMV) stay very wide coming into the hairpin, then turn in HARD, and dail out steering as I passed the last cone, this gives you a straighter shot at the box, and you don't find yourself turned to full lock when you should be traveling straight - basically what i think you are doing is turning in too early, causing you to apex WAY early, and then straightening the wheel too late - the first modified diagram is closer to what i would suggest, only exaggerated even more to get a straighter shot at the box.

I have a friend who does the exact same thing, she hugs the inside of the corner at the entrance and finds herself using WAY too much steering to get through the corner, and unable to straighten the wheel in time.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Damn, I reread the first post and everything and I still have it backward. So we're starting on the top left huh? Okay, in that case, nevermind my line. It's horrible backwards

The best line (backwards) still depends on what's before the right hander. If it's a fast section, I'd carry the speed as deep as I could straight into the turn, knowing that my exit speed doesn't matter at all because I have to slow down for the box anyway. So I would suggest an extremely late apex, much like 00R101 drew but even later. I would also brake a little deeper, making my speed past the exit cone of the right hander a little slower in hopes of saving all that traction for setting up a good position for the box. Again, if you already know you have to go slow, there's no excuse for being out of position because you tried to go too fast.

And let me suggest direction arrows in the future for the not-so-quite-smarter members of HT such as myself.

 

It is a fast section before the turn in question.

 

My initial thoughts were about what 00R101 posted. If you took the line in your pic, you're turning in too early.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by skierd &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My initial thoughts were about what 00R101 posted. If you took the line in your pic, you're turning in too early.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'd agree. Brake later, turn in later and look out your side window.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well, if that were the direction the course went, yeah, that would work. if you read again real careful (it's confusing the way it was written) the right hander precedes the chicago box, not the other way around.

nate</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wow, in that case, I would have had problems there too.