I just did my first HPDE this weekend on VIR full course. I had a great time with the exception of oak tree. I downshift to 3rd coming to turn 11, and I *need* to do a quick downshift to 2nd to pull through turn 12, but I can't pull it off quick enough. My instructor recommended heel-toeing.

Problem is I'm 6'1", with long legs, and narrow size 12 feet in a civic. I just don't have the legroom to pull it off with the stock pedals.

Anyone have any suggestions here or can recommend some reasonably priced pedals to help pull this off?

http://www.virclub.com/track_i....html

I tried using the search function, but it is busted right now.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kommon_sense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Anyone have any suggestions here or can recommend some reasonably priced pedals to help pull this off?

http://www.virclub.com/track_i....html

I tried using the search function, but it is busted right now.</TD></TR></TABLE>

bro i know how you feel.. i am 6'4 with a size 13.. belive it or not i felt the same way when i first wanted to learn i was like there is no ******* way its happening... but you just need to keep practicing on the street and you will get it .. . now that i can do it .. my shoe size and height is not a factor.. you will get it man just practic.e

 

if the actual heel/toe doesnt work. use the side of your foot. half on brake, half on gas. it works on different applications.

 

You can adjust the distance between the pedals by bending the arms, and the brake pedal hight can also be adjusted. This will make it a little easier to get your foot on both pedals at the same time. But none of that matters if you dont practice.

 

Keep practicing. I am 6'1" size 11 or 12 shoes and have no problem heel towing. I know people taller than me and they can do it just fine with stock pedals also.

 

Sparco makes a nice set for under$40...

Practice, practice, practice...Heel toe is something you can practice on the street without endangerng yourself or others. The more you practice the more second nature it will become.

 

I'm also a size 12, and the method I use is to have the ball of my foot on the brake, and the right edge/side of my foot over the gas. All I have to do then is sort of twist my foot down to blip the throttle, no ankle movement or rotation necessary. I had to watch an instructor do that to really get the idea, and then lots of practice on the street (you don't have to be flying into a corner hard on the brakes to do this ).

 

I should have waved when you passed my students, Rex.

Regardless of where you are downshifting, heel-toe techniques will help. The problem wiht OT is that the shift has to happen quick. I can recommend these pads from LTB Motorsports...



They were the most affordable ones that Louis B. had and they work great. Notice how they've been mounted to use up the space betwen the brake and thottle pedals.

Your instructor probably mentioned it but it can also be helpful to turn that little chute before 12 into a straight, rather than arcing into it. I'm not sure that it's the fastest way through there but it sure gives the ol' feet more time to work.

Lastly, "heel and toe" is a misnomer for most people. It's more often "ball of foot and side of foot" or something similar.

K

 

practicing on the street doesnt really help for track healtoe... you dont thresh hold break and downshift like you do on the track while you are on the street.

exiting southbend, just after the kink between 10 and 11... you point the car at the last brake marker and head straight for it.... break hard, heal toe.... as long as you dont have slower traffic ahead of you... 3rd gear should get you through both 11 and 12 (oak tree) without issue. At least thats how i have been instructed to take the 10-12 corners at VIR.

all my VIR runs were on stock suspension, Azenis (14 inch), and Crabotech XP8s in a 1990 CRX Si with the factory D16A6 w/ originial tranny

Oh yeah... i'm not a big person but i healtoe with the side of my foot ALWAYS... its just more comfortable for me.

 

I'm 6'3" size 13 shoe and I can heeltoe fine... like someone else said it just takes some practice.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MMsportsRexSi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">practicing on the street doesnt really help for track healtoe... you dont thresh hold break and downshift like you do on the track while you are on the street.

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I agree with you about the threshold braking part. You are not going to do that on the street much. When I was trying to learn heel toe, doing it at an autocross ended up with some screwy braking and downshifts. By going through the motions, day to day, (minus the threshold braking) I was able to get the timing and the mechanics of it down. The next time I tried it at an event, the result was better. Just my experience...everybody needs to find their own thing that works...

 

If it's a leg length thing then it's going to be an issue anywhere you want to H/T, not just Oak Tree.

My recommendation is that you practice on the street, practice in your driveway, practice all the time. Heel-toe is only adding work if you're not good at it. And "Not good at it" could mean the car is ill suited to it, or you've never done it before, or whatever.

Once it's habitual to you and you can do it every time, things will get better. One suggestion I can make for Oak Tree is that as you approach it and are making the 3 -&gt; 2 shift, move your left hand to the bottom (six o'clock) of the steering wheel. You'll have more "room" to start turning in while your right hand is coming off the shifter this way.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MMsportsRexSi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">practicing on the street doesnt really help for track healtoe... you dont thresh hold break and downshift like you do on the track while you are on the street. </TD></TR></TABLE>

It does help - if you dont practice on the street you'll never get it right on track. You have to develop a Muscle memory.

kommon_sense - what kind of car were you driving? I reckon you should just leave it in 3rd and work on carrying momentum through and once you get comfortable with the line, then work on downshifting - I'm suprised your instructor did not tell you to do this.

 

Thanks for the suggesstions. I'll practice on the street, but I swear that my knee is going to slam into the console

As for OT, on my last run, my 225lb instructor hopped out and let me go at it by myself. I can get the quick shift from 4-3 going into 11 without a problem, and without the instructor in the car, 3rd had enough to carry me through OT. However with the big guy in the car, I had to downshift to 2nd, and I screwed it up just about every time.

knestis. What car is that? I swear that it looks a lot like a white VW that was out there this weekend.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

It does help - if you dont practice on the street you'll never get it right on track. You have to develop a Muscle memory.

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it does help with muscle memory... and i still do it on the street... BUT... its not the same as it is on track. At least i'm short and i dont have to deal with slamming my knees into the dash.

 

I do everything that I do on the track when I'm on the street. Heel/toe, shuffle steer, eyes up, etc. If you do those things all the time, it becomes second nature, and you don't even think about it when you are on the track. When I'm racing I want to be thinking about the specific circumstances I'm in, not whether or not I'm going to get my next shift right.

That being said, the $30 Sparco pedals work great for me on both my street car and my race car.


Matt

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kommon_sense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Problem is I'm 6'1", with long legs, and narrow size 12 feet in a civic. I just don't have the legroom to pull it off with the stock pedals. </TD></TR></TABLE>
If I can do it at leggy 6'3" in a miata, then you can pull it off in a civic

tips:
-get some cheap pedal covers from a ricer shop, or some OMP/Sparco pedals if you dont mind drilling. Position the brake pedal as close to the gas as possible. I only use the brake pedal cover, because it also helps with pedal height.
-put the seat back. the more your knees are bent the harder it is to heel&toe.
if putting the seat back makes your arms too far from the wheel, the put the seat tilt up. (sorry you will have to give up your stunna lean)
-practice, practice, practice. there really isnt any instant solution.
good things to practice on the street are: braking without your heel touching the floor, keeping brake pressure constant while blipping, and the revmatching itself.

 

my solution was to get some del sol seats... the 2 or 3" that they lower your body help immensely. they are more comfortable to boot!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elgorey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">good things to practice on the street are: braking without your heel touching the floor, keeping brake pressure constant while blipping, and the revmatching itself.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is why I do it on the street. I can practice all of that without having to worry about threshold braking. Keeping brake pressure consistent was the hardest thing for me, and again, just needs lots of practice.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mike C &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">my solution was to get some del sol seats... the 2 or 3" that they lower your body help immensely. they are more comfortable to boot!</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've thought about my seats as well... I've got a knot on my left knee from bracing myself against the driver's door when making hard right turns. My stock seats just don't hold you in place well at all.

I tried heel-toeing on the way to work... I was able to jam my foot in there, but it was not easy and the results were not impressive. I've got a lot of practice ahead of me

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MMsportsRexSi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">practicing on the street doesnt really help for track healtoe... you dont thresh hold break and downshift like you do on the track while you are on the street.

exiting southbend, just after the kink between 10 and 11... you point the car at the last brake marker and head straight for it.... break hard, heal toe.... as long as you dont have slower traffic ahead of you... 3rd gear should get you through both 11 and 12 (oak tree) without issue. At least thats how i have been instructed to take the 10-12 corners at VIR.

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some do threshold brake on the street...


in my b20 powered 92 hatch.....i would go to 2nd gear.....

like he said head straight for the brake maker....threshold blip throttle (big blip) cause you'll need the rpms to get into 2nd gear.....if i had a dseries in my car i would almost think about going into first gear....i believe it is a 30mph turn...almost stopped....

practice practice...etc....

you can do it on the street without threshold braking....just so you get use to getting the rpms up for the throttle shift match

 

Another thing to consider...

The Civic/CRX has a lot of leg room when the seat is way back, but the steering wheel is too close to the dash. If you have an aftermarket steering wheel you could put a spacer behind it to get the wheel closer with the seat a little further back. On my car I used a 3" spacer behind the wheel in order to get a more comfortable driving position.

 

Well, I have a couple of suggestions...

1. Don't bother with the heel-toe. I never do it in a FWD car and have never had any issues. As a matter of fact, Its my opinion (and a few others, but we are an admitted minority), that H/T is a waste of precious time in a FWD car. Romp on the brakes, grab a gear, and GO.
Been doing it this way for 10 years and haven't torn up anything yet.

2. In short, tight places like the approach to Oak Tree, leave it in the higher gear and carry the mo. Especially at Oak Tree, where the exit is a down hill run. If I can carry 3rd gear in an 85hp Civic, I'm pretty sure cars with 100 more HP can do it .

3. Don't brake for Oak Tree at all. Get the braking done at no-name and just carry throttle in an arc to Oak Tree. Floor it when you get to the apex. This is also done in 3rd gear.
This is not my exact approach, but its close. I just brush the brakes to get some weight on the front tires for turn-in and I mash it. 3rd Gear.
But I have seen a few Spec Miatas and IT cars do this. No brake lights at all before the turn-in.
Thats a big step towards running a 2:23 in a Spec Miata

I dunno if any of these are the answer for you. Just pointing out that there are more options than fiddling with the seat and the pedal.

PS - If you ever go to Road Atlanta you'll see this probleam even worse in turn 5. Its an extremely short brake zone that leads to a steep uphill climb and most every car NEEDS a downshift. If you're heel-toeing, you'd better be quick with it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well, I have a couple of suggestions...

1. Don't bother with the heel-toe. I never do it in a FWD car and have never had any issues. As a matter of fact, Its my opinion (and a few others, but we are an admitted minority), that H/T is a waste of precious time in a FWD car. Romp on the brakes, grab a gear, and GO.
Been doing it this way for 10 years and haven't torn up anything yet.

2. In short, tight places like the approach to Oak Tree, leave it in the higher gear and carry the mo. Especially at Oak Tree, where the exit is a down hill run. If I can carry 3rd gear in an 85hp Civic, I'm pretty sure cars with 100 more HP can do it .</TD></TR></TABLE>

I got to do my last run by myself and I was able to carry 3rd through oak tree, but I tended to run out of go with my 225+lb instructor on the passenger side. I'm hoping to go back in April to run south course, so I'll have to give this a try again.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
3. Don't brake for Oak Tree at all. Get the braking done at no-name and just carry throttle in an arc to Oak Tree. Floor it when you get to the apex. This is also done in 3rd gear.
This is not my exact approach, but its close. I just brush the brakes to get some weight on the front tires for turn-in and I mash it. 3rd Gear.
But I have seen a few Spec Miatas and IT cars do this. No brake lights at all before the turn-in.
Thats a big step towards running a 2:23 in a Spec Miata
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I may need to back off on the rear swaybar a bit (comptech 22mm on middle setting). It is currently very easy for me to get the rear end a tad loose coming through oak tree. I don't know that I can pull off not braking at all, but worth a try

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I dunno if any of these are the answer for you. Just pointing out that there are more options than fiddling with the seat and the pedal.

PS - If you ever go to Road Atlanta you'll see this probleam even worse in turn 5. Its an extremely short brake zone that leads to a steep uphill climb and most every car NEEDS a downshift. If you're heel-toeing, you'd better be quick with it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hey, keep the suggestions coming. I really appreciate it. Especially if I can solve my problem without spending money