hey guys:

just wanted to see if anyone has or is having the same problems/symptoms that i'm surffering from on my 1994 Integra GS-R. After driving around for a while and stopping i seem to have problems starting up my car again. The ignition would crank several times then not start or it would start and then stall. these are the things that i've done or have happened:

- turn to the "ON" position and listen for fuel pump to prime and then start car
- starting problems never occcur on a cold start (ie. mornings)

could this be the Starter or the Main Fuel Pump Relay going out? What are the differences between the two?? when this happens does it show up in the trouble codes on the ECU? just trying to diagnose the problem and fix without wasting money replacing unnecessary parts so any help or information would be much appreciated.

thank you.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by deep6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... could this be the Starter or the Main Fuel Pump Relay going out? What are the differences between the two??</TD></TR></TABLE>The starter's job is simply to spin the engine. Sounds like that's OK?? I read your post & it sounds like the starter isn't having any trouble cranking the engine, but the engine isn't firing up. Right?

The main relay is a combination of a couple relays together in the same case. It provides power to the ECU & fuel injectors, while the other half of it provides power to the fuel pump.

So you listened for the fuel pump... You didn't say whether you actually hear it?

Is it reliable? If it's warmed up & shut off, will it ALWAYS fail to start? Then check for spark. After trying to start it, do you smell gasoline? After it fails, try holding the gas pedal to the floor while cranking the starter. If that works, it's flooding. Maybe the FPR is ruptured & pumping fuel thru it's vacuum hose?

 

mine does the same thing sometimes. please help us, i cant figure it out either.

 

i've had the same problem since the summer.

Car would always crank, so i know it wasn't the starter. Car would start on cold mornings with no problems.

But when i would stop for short periods of time like getting gas, car wouldn't start. This problem would happen most consistently at this time. I would listen for the fuel pump, sometimes it i would hear it, most of the time i wouldn't. Even if i did hear the fuel pump prime up, car would still stall sometimes. Crank, fire up, then sputter to die. I would have to wait a good 5-10 minutes before the car would fire up and stay on. I usually just spent this time checking air pressure and cleaning the windows.

I replaced the main relay 3 weeks ago, haven't had any trouble for the 2 times i filled gas. And starting has been consistent for other short stops.

 

Mt3c, yours does sound like the main relay. The ECU switches on the fuel pump for 2 seconds to prime it, then when you actually start it has to switch on the fuel pump again. If the main relay is flaky, it can fail to run the fuel pump EITHER time.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DOHCGsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">mine does the same thing sometimes. please help us, i cant figure it out either.</TD></TR></TABLE>WHAT same thing? Not start? Did you check whether the fuel pump primes? Did you smell gasoline after trying? Does it help to hold the gas pedal to the floor?

 

Jim Blake: I have tried listening for fuel pump to prime and i hear absolutely nothing. I also have felt the fuel line from the fuel filter to fuel rail and it feels like their is nothing in it. I have also had the gas pedal to the floor and does absolutely nothing, but if i let it sit for about 5- 10 minutes like Mt3c, it would start up no problem. This event rarely happends. Anyone else...please help us out.

P/S: how much is a main relay?
BTW: 1994 GS-R also

 

The fuel pump is pretty quiet, but if you're listening for it you should hear it. For example after waiting 10 minutes you'll hear it prime & then the engine starts?

I'll guess the main relay just because if the pump were bad it probably wouldn't get better after waiting 10 minutes. With some jumper wires & a meter, you can check the main relay to be sure. Look it up at some of the online places, I don't know what it costs; maybe $50??

 

It is most likely your main fuel relay, a lot of the 90-93 accords and 92-95 civics had this problem on warm/hot starts. The reason why your car starts and then stalls is because of the residuall pressurized fuel in your fuel system before you start your car.

This was due to the solder cracking on the leads of the main fuel relay. You can repair the fuel relay by resoldering the leads. Be careful doing this because a soldering iron that is too hot can cause the lead to peel off of the board itself.

Im too lazy but if you search in the archives there should be a thread covering how to repair it.

Hope this saves you $50

 

thanks for the help. Im gonna check the main relay with a test light i got. I will let you know if it is good or bad. then ill go from their

 

I had the same problem. Turned out to be my starter. I bought a used one for $20bux. 15min later fired right up. When I turned the key I heard my fuel pump prime and then I heard one click which was my starter motor trying to give. Good luck.

 

There's a real big difference between some of these problems...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Drian &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I had the same problem. Turned out to be my starter...</TD></TR></TABLE>Then maybe it really wasn't the same problem.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JimBlake &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The starter's job is simply to spin the engine.</TD></TR></TABLE>Is this really so hard to understand? If the starter is spinning the engine, then IT'S DOING IT'S JOB! DONE. END OF STORY! Look somewhere else for the problem.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mt3c &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Car would always crank, so i know it wasn't the starter.</TD></TR></TABLE>There. Someone gets it. I was trying to get deep6 to tell us whether his starter is working, but he hasn't posted back.

The differences between these 4 (deep6, DOHCGsr, Mt3c, & Drian) are important. There's at least 2 different problems going on, probably more. Not starting covers about 3 dozen different things, so details are important.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Drian &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When I turned the key I heard my fuel pump prime and then I heard one click which was my starter motor trying to give.</TD></TR></TABLE>Descriptions like this are SO IMPORTANT. That's way better than 'it won't start'...

 

whats up guys:

sorry i didn't get back to you sooner, jim....i solved the problem and i believe it turned out to be the MAIN RELAY. i purchased the part from Oakland Acura for $55.00 and it was a simple install of unplugging and replugging in the main relay unit. on my '94 GS-R, i thankfully didn't have to take apart my lower dash as you can access it by the main fuse/cruise control boxes. i noticed that the new part was grey in color versus the original part which was brown in color + the part numbers were different....i hope the guy gave me the right part--does anybody know what the correct part number is? also, i had to relocate the main relay since it's larger in size and won't fit on the original mounting bracket/hole...did everyone else have to do this as well?

i just wanted to clarify some of my problematic symptoms and what i noticed....my car would cold start fine but, when warmed up and driven around awhile then started again, it would crank several times then start or i would have to wait til the car cooled and restart. as the starting symptoms worsened...it would require several tries then it would start and then sputter and eventually die. i believe the starter was always spinning, i would wait and hear while the fuel pump would prime before firing up the car. all this time my lights and windows would still continue to function.

after i installed the main relay and have driven it around for a few days now...i've noticed a new problem which has never occurred before installing this part. after startup the car would idle erratically up then down and the engine would feel as though its sputtering and feel like it would die but, then return to normal after driving. has anyone encountered this before or have any idea as to what might be wrong?

i will try and post up pics of the main relay install and descriptions for those that might be in a similar situation. thank you for everyone's information and help so far....

 

Not sure, but I think I've heard where there's 2 suppliers for that part. Sorta interchangeable, except for mounting hardware?

If you like doing this stuff for fun, you can take your old main relay apart. Often there's a bad solder joint that's starting to crack. People have fixed it by touching it with a soldering iron...

Your new stuff sounds like it could be some combination of these...
- vacuum leak
- dirty/sticking idle air control valve (IACV, back of intake manifold)
- fast-idle thermo valve (FITV, under throttlebody) is loose inside

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by deep6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> after startup the car would idle erratically up then down and the engine would feel as though its sputtering and feel like it would die but, then return to normal after driving. has anyone encountered this before or have any idea as to what might be wrong?


</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have this exact same problem as well. So if you find out what it is let me know. Could it be vacuum lines? Anyone?

Thanks


Modified by 98civic94gsr at 1:57 PM 1/31/2005

 

jim:

thanks for the tips...i don't have my helm manual in front of me but, do you know if there are ways to test the two components: the idle air control valve or the fast idle thermo valve?

i talked to my friend last night and he also had the same exact problem after he replaced his main relay in his 90 integra where the idle is erractic and the stumbling problem occurs after startup. also, my friend tried checking for any error codes on his ecu but, nothing shows up.

of the two components you mentioned above....are these known to have failed or a common problem with the 3rd gen integras?

if anybody else has any information or suggestions please post up.

thank you.

 

The IACV & FITV seem to be common things, based on postings here...

(If I remember...) The Helm book doesn't say anything about fixing them, just replace. But there's several success stories around here about cleaning with TB cleaner &/or tightening the FITV guts.

I believe testing the FITV consists of covering the lower hole in the TB after it's warmed up. With the engine warm the FITV is supposed to be closed, so it won't change the idle.

The '90 ECU isn't nearly as smart as yours, as far as it 'knowing' what's wrong. OTOH, OBD-2 is even more sophisticated. Remember what kind of PC you could buy for $2500 in 1990??

The IACV can throw a check-engine light, but apparently it can also get wierd without throwing a CEL. If you unplug the wires from it, the idle should go down to 450. You have to baby it down to that point, 'cause it'll try to stall. If it stays high or surges, then you should look for other reasons.

98 civic...
Vacuum leaks are a common reason for surging idle. Gaskets as well as hoses.

 

I just did a swap so I could have forgot some vacuum lines. I don't think I did though. What about gaskets? Gaskets for what? Also what hoses would I check?


Thanks

98civic94gsr

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 98civic94gsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Gaskets for what? Also what hoses would I check?</TD></TR></TABLE>Intake manifold gasket (against the head)
Intake manifold gasket (between sections of 2-stage manifold)
Throttlebody gasket
Any hose connected to intake manifold
Vacuum leak thru secondary butterfly shaft
Anywhere you hear air sucking in??

 

thanks jim for the info. about the IACV & FITV on my '94 GS-R...my idle seems to have returned to normal and i haven't had any weird idle drops and sputtering lately but, haven't done a lot of short trip driving where you turn the car on/off so next time it happens i'll look to either of those parts. does anybody know how much those parts would cost each from an acura dealer or online?

thank you.

 

deep6: thanks for the update.
I still havent had time trying to see if the main relay was also my problem (i have two freakin english classes plus a full schedule for school...shouldnt have slacked the early years plus workin every day) But my symptons were exatly the same as yours but mine rarely does it...about once a month and i noticed it always happened when i have been driving for a little bit. when it dont start, i try to hear fuel pump prime but it doesnt and engine cranks over but no start. Once in a while it will start and sputter for no more than 2 sec. then it would die again. Then i wait for about 5-10 min. it starts up like nothin ever happened.
Now i am afraid to replace my main relay since it has given you some idle problems, but i probably goin to get a new one ne ways. Thanks again.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DOHCGsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Now i am afraid to replace my main relay since it has given you some idle problems...</TD></TR></TABLE>I really don't think the main relay GAVE him the idle problems. That should be unrelated.