Hallo,

i searched but can't find any detailed information about this topic.
what are the advanteages of a Ball bearing turbo vs. a jouranal bearing turbo?

especialy things like:

- daily driving durability
- spool up time (how many rpm in average)
- efficiency in high rpm/pressure ranges? (i mean turbo rpm NOT engine rpm)

which is where better or not so good...
had anyone made a direct compare of two nearly identical turbos only one BB and one JB?

Thanks
Malte.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hallo,

i searched but can't find any detailed information about this topic.
what are the advanteages of a Ball bearing turbo vs. a jouranal bearing turbo?

especialy things like:

- daily driving durability
- spool up time (how many rpm in average)
- efficiency in high rpm/pressure ranges? (i mean turbo rpm NOT engine rpm)

which is where better or not so good...
had anyone made a direct compare of two nearly identical turbos only one BB and one JB?

Thanks
Malte.</TD></TR></TABLE>
well...
with a ballbearing turbo you have to rig up water lines so that the center section is getting a good supply of coolent to keep the heat under control.
thats another thing to consider...
do you want the head ache of water lines?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

- daily driving durability
</TD></TR></TABLE>
well as far as daily driving... it all depends on what your idea of lag is... and how big your going with the compressor and turbine.
if you consider a laggy turbo "not so good" for daily driving, then a ball bearing option may be something you might want to look into.
they are both fairly reliable.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
- spool up time (how many rpm in average)


.</TD></TR></TABLE>

well it depends on displacment...
there is no telling how soon your turbo is going to spool unless we know what turbo, and what size motor.
i mean a PT67 non ballbearing on a b-16a punched to 1715cc spools to damn near 30 psi around 6k rpm. now a ballbearing version of the PT67 will have a slight spool advantage... maybe 500rpm depending on a few conditions...
a good engine managment system also aids in spooling.
so a good tune will further take advantage of the dual ballbearing center section.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
- efficiency in high rpm/pressure ranges? (i mean turbo rpm NOT engine rpm)

.</TD></TR></TABLE>
well efficiency...
thats a different ball game...
if you look at a compressor map you will see to the left a "surge" line...
the sooner a turbo spools in the RPM range the closer to the surge line you will be... so a quicker spooling turbo will not always yield a more efficient charge.
so some strap on huge turbos and run the revs to about 10k rpm...
remember the b-16a with the t67...
well its non ball bearing... but he doesnt need it, the thing makes over 670whp and revs to 10.5k with a super broad power band of about 4k rpm.
so once again it all comes down to your setup... i cant give one answer until i know what your looking for.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">which is where better or not so good...
had anyone made a direct compare of two nearly identical turbos only one BB and one JB?

Thanks
Malte.</TD></TR></TABLE>
well if you want... go to http://www.dragsport.com and order the back issue where they took two exact turbos in wheel and housing combo's...
the only difference was the center section...
one was ball bearing one was not.
its an iteresting artical... i want to say it was the april issue...
maybe someone can assist me on that....
and if you get real bored order up the march issue... im in that one lol

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GT61 this 1.8t &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
well...
with a ballbearing turbo you have to rig up water lines so that the center section is getting a good supply of coolent to keep the heat under control.
thats another thing to consider...
do you want the head ache of water lines?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't have time to read the rest of your post, so I'll just comment on the first thing I saw. Ball bearing turbos do not require "coolent to keep the heat under control." There is absolutely no reason why a turbo would run any cooler with bushings than ball bearing. I would know, I've been running a ball bearing turbo for 4 years now and the only lines running to it are an oil feed and an oil return.

 

hmm. im glad you would know lol...

well i dont know what else to tell you but this...
from garrett.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Garrett &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
All of the GT series twin ball bearing turbos utilize a water cooled bearing housing. A constant supply of water must be plumbed to the 14mmx1.5 threaded holes front and rear. The oil inlet on the top of the bearing housing is a 7/16-24 inverted flare. This must be supplied with a constant flow of CLEAN oil at pressures no greater than 60psi. And the oil drain is a two bolt flange with 8mm1.25 threaded holes. </TD></TR></TABLE>

i mean i donno bro...
maybe you run a CBB center section... aka compressor ball bearing...
thats a turbonetics thing tho...
like i said, a dual ballbearing turbo needs coolent lines... and from my understanding this guy wants to know the pro's and cons of BB turbos and JB turbos...
so i posted. sorry i was wrong i guess.. lol
maybe you should have read the rest of my post.





Modified by GT61 this 1.8t at 3:39 AM 12/28/2004

 

haha, compressor ball bearing? And here i thought it stood for ceramic ball bearing, silly me. you can re-read the first 'paragraph' you write:

"well...
with a ballbearing turbo you have to rig up water lines so that the center section is getting a good supply of coolent to keep the heat under control.
thats another thing to consider...
do you want the head ache of water lines?"

I don't see you mention anything about garrett GT dual BB turbos being the only one that requires coolant lines. Last I checked, they were not the only makers of a BB turbo. And I'd rather not dissect the rest of your origional post, as you appear to only regurgitate (mis)information that you read off the internet

 

there are two main types of ball bearing turbos, the gt series from garrett, and the ones from turbonetics. the turbonetics ones arent really true ballbearing because they have only one ballbearing, on the compressor side, the exhaust is still your typical journal bearing. There are others, like ceramic and such.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GT61 this 1.8t &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hmm. im glad you would know lol...

well i dont know what else to tell you but this...
from garrett.


i mean i donno bro...
maybe you run a CBB center section... aka compressor ball bearing...
thats a turbonetics thing tho...
like i said, a dual ballbearing turbo needs coolent lines... and from my understanding this guy wants to know the pro's and cons of BB turbos and JB turbos...
so i posted. sorry i was wrong i guess.. lol
maybe you should have read the rest of my post.

Modified by GT61 this 1.8t at 3:39 AM 12/28/2004</TD></TR></TABLE>


Quote, originally posted by Garrett »

All of the GT series twin ball bearing turbos utilize a water cooled bearing housing. A constant supply of water must be plumbed to the 14mmx1.5 threaded holes front and rear. The oil inlet on the top of the bearing housing is a 7/16-24 inverted flare. This must be supplied with a constant flow of CLEAN oil at pressures no greater than 60psi. And the oil drain is a two bolt flange with 8mm1.25 threaded holes

TOUCHE!!!

 

innovative turbo systems offers a dual ceramic ballbearing option, that does not require you to have water lines, you can run lines if you want, but it is not necessary, they have a couple of guys on here with gt35r's running without the water lines and they haven't had any problems so far

 

I ran the **** out of my Turbonetics T-series Ceramic Ball bearing turbo with no water lines. I had the option in the housing but I just plugged it with some fittings.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PureTeg420 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">haha, compressor ball bearing? And here i thought it stood for ceramic ball bearing, silly me. you can re-read the first 'paragraph' you write:

"well...
with a ballbearing turbo you have to rig up water lines so that the center section is getting a good supply of coolent to keep the heat under control.
thats another thing to consider...
do you want the head ache of water lines?"

I don't see you mention anything about garrett GT dual BB turbos being the only one that requires coolant lines. Last I checked, they were not the only makers of a BB turbo. And I'd rather not dissect the rest of your origional post, as you appear to only regurgitate (mis)information that you read off the internet</TD></TR></TABLE>
riiiight
a single ball bearing turbo charger like the ones mentioned by another user use a single ball bearing on the compressor side... with out a ball bearing cartridge on the exhaust shaft there really isnt a need to run water to the center section...
i for one am running a dual ceramic ballbearing turbo from ITS.... im sorry but i paid about 1300 bucks for the thing and im not going to take a chance by not running water lines to the center section.
thats just me making an attempt to protect my investment.
i deal with ITS alot, and as a dealer i was told to never recomend someone use a ball bearing center section with out proper coolent lines plumbed.
that too must be internet bable eh?
oh well...
point blank if you want to run a dual ball bearing turbo, run the water lines to the center section.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wantboost &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">there are two main types of ball bearing turbos, the gt series from garrett, and the ones from turbonetics. the turbonetics ones arent really true ballbearing because they have only one ballbearing, on the compressor side, the exhaust is still your typical journal bearing. There are others, like ceramic and such.</TD></TR></TABLE>
thanks... but i guess we are the only ones who "know" this internet bable.

 

Our understanding is that there are three completely different ball bearing center sections on the market now from Innovative, Turbonetics and Garrett.

Innovative uses a dual ball bearing with a ball bearing thrust bearing, Turbonetics uses a single ceramic coated ball bearing with a thrust bearing while Garrett uses a dual ball bearing without a thrust bearing.

Garrett says that their system is a single sleeve system with a set of angular contact ball bearings whereas the traditional bearing system contains a set of journal bearings and a thrust bearing.

It's been written that ball bearing designs typically decrease lag time by anywhere from 400 to 800 rpm. I've had Pro Sport Compact teams say they seen no difference between ball bearing and non-ball bearing turbos, but they were also shooting nitrous to help spool the turbo.

Precision has just devised a method of measuring turbo shaft speed using the data logging capability of the Big Stuff 3 system. On a stock Buick Grand National 3.8L V6 running 15 psi, the shaft speed was 108,000 rpm -- or 1,800 revolutions per second.

Sorry, back to the subject. Garrett also says that their ball bearing design reduces the amount of oil required, which reduces the chance for seal leakage. There's no need for a thrust bearing, which is a well known weak link in most turbos.

Hope this helps.

Rod Short
Sales Manager
Precision Turbo

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rod Short &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Our understanding is that there are three completely different ball bearing center sections on the market now from Innovative, Turbonetics and Garrett.

Innovative uses a dual ball bearing with a ball bearing thrust bearing, Turbonetics uses a single ceramic coated ball bearing with a thrust bearing while Garrett uses a dual ball bearing without a thrust bearing.

Garrett says that their system is a single sleeve system with a set of angular contact ball bearings whereas the traditional bearing system contains a set of journal bearings and a thrust bearing.

It's been written that ball bearing designs typically decrease lag time by anywhere from 400 to 800 rpm. I've had Pro Sport Compact teams say they seen no difference between ball bearing and non-ball bearing turbos, but they were also shooting nitrous to help spool the turbo.

Precision has just devised a method of measuring turbo shaft speed using the data logging capability of the Big Stuff 3 system. On a stock Buick Grand National 3.8L V6 running 15 psi, the shaft speed was 108,000 rpm -- or 1,800 revolutions per second.

Sorry, back to the subject. Garrett also says that their ball bearing design reduces the amount of oil required, which reduces the chance for seal leakage. There's no need for a thrust bearing, which is a well known weak link in most turbos.

Hope this helps.

Rod Short
Sales Manager
Precision Turbo</TD></TR></TABLE>
great info rod!

 

Hey, not a problem. Take care of all those homies in Tidewater. I miss Virginia!

Rod

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rod Short &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hey, not a problem. Take care of all those homies in Tidewater. I miss Virginia!

Rod</TD></TR></TABLE>
lol...
actually i just set up an SC44 sale today.

also whats your take on running water lines to a dual ball bearing center section?