Problem determination/diagnosis, why did my motor a'splode?
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From: Hollywood Babylon
Problem determination/diagnosis, why did my motor a'splode?
I never really figured out what happened. And I may never know for sure, but it doesnt hurt to try to understand.
Whatever happened caused a rod bolt to snap, which in turn ripped the rod right out of the bottom of the piston as the crank came around, and shot the rod through the block into the header. The piston is otherwise in tact and shows no damage other than a ding from the valves after the rod went.
So after getting the head back today, and able to see the bent valves up close after being cleaned, I noticed one of the valves appears to be scorched. This is the only valve that shows any wear such as this. I also noticed one of my retainers has very abnormal wear from the valvespring, while the other retainers show virtually no wear. Unfortunately I dont know if this retainer was the one attached to the scorched valve. Im just assuming because it seems kind of odd.
First and foremost, Im curious why this valve looks like this. Im guessing some sort of extreme heat did this? The piston of that cylinder shows no signs of heat damage and appears perfectly normal looking, other than the couple dings from the valves. Not only that but the intake valves from that cylinder dont appear to be scorched like this and even the spark plug doesnt look too bad other than oil all over it. I also know that I was running very rich so I dont know how it could have gotten so hot (detonation?).
Secondly, Im wondering why only the one retainer has so much damage.
Finally, Im just wondering if any of these valve train issues could have played a part in my motor a'sploding.
Scorched valve?
All the other valves appear normal like this one
The damaged retainer. None of the others look anything like this one.
And finally the con rod
Whatever happened caused a rod bolt to snap, which in turn ripped the rod right out of the bottom of the piston as the crank came around, and shot the rod through the block into the header. The piston is otherwise in tact and shows no damage other than a ding from the valves after the rod went.
So after getting the head back today, and able to see the bent valves up close after being cleaned, I noticed one of the valves appears to be scorched. This is the only valve that shows any wear such as this. I also noticed one of my retainers has very abnormal wear from the valvespring, while the other retainers show virtually no wear. Unfortunately I dont know if this retainer was the one attached to the scorched valve. Im just assuming because it seems kind of odd.
First and foremost, Im curious why this valve looks like this. Im guessing some sort of extreme heat did this? The piston of that cylinder shows no signs of heat damage and appears perfectly normal looking, other than the couple dings from the valves. Not only that but the intake valves from that cylinder dont appear to be scorched like this and even the spark plug doesnt look too bad other than oil all over it. I also know that I was running very rich so I dont know how it could have gotten so hot (detonation?).
Secondly, Im wondering why only the one retainer has so much damage.
Finally, Im just wondering if any of these valve train issues could have played a part in my motor a'sploding.
Scorched valve?
All the other valves appear normal like this one
The damaged retainer. None of the others look anything like this one.
And finally the con rod
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From: Chicagoland, IL
Re: Problem determination/diagnosis, why did my motor a'splode? (RTW DC2)
Dirty/lean fuel injector? 
That would be my first guess. Still using the original set of injectors? Have them flow-tested.
http://www.rceng.com/service.htm
-Chris
Edit: My FIRST guess might be you just had a bad rod, luck of the draw kind of thing. But if your valves were REALLY scorched, that might be a sign of fuel problems.
That would be my first guess. Still using the original set of injectors? Have them flow-tested.http://www.rceng.com/service.htm
-Chris
Edit: My FIRST guess might be you just had a bad rod, luck of the draw kind of thing. But if your valves were REALLY scorched, that might be a sign of fuel problems.
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From: Hollywood Babylon
Re: Problem determination/diagnosis, why did my motor a'splode? (Chris F)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">-Chris
Edit: My FIRST guess might be you just had a bad rod, luck of the draw kind of thing. But if your valves were REALLY scorched, that might be a sign of fuel problems.</TD></TR></TABLE>
this only occured on ONE valve. the other valves in the chamber appear to be ok other than slightly bent after the piston slapped them. thats why its kinda odd.
Edit: My FIRST guess might be you just had a bad rod, luck of the draw kind of thing. But if your valves were REALLY scorched, that might be a sign of fuel problems.</TD></TR></TABLE>
this only occured on ONE valve. the other valves in the chamber appear to be ok other than slightly bent after the piston slapped them. thats why its kinda odd.
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Re: Problem determination/diagnosis, why did my motor a'splode? (Chris F)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Dirty/lean fuel injector? That would be my first guess. Still using the original set of injectors? Have them flow-tested.
http://www.rceng.com/service.htm
-Chris
Edit: My FIRST guess might be you just had a bad rod, luck of the draw kind of thing. But if your valves were REALLY scorched, that might be a sign of fuel problems.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yep lean hole............And or a valve out of adjustment , hence the slapping that caused the spring to cut into the retainer. High rpm motor?
That would be my first guess. Still using the original set of injectors? Have them flow-tested.http://www.rceng.com/service.htm
-Chris
Edit: My FIRST guess might be you just had a bad rod, luck of the draw kind of thing. But if your valves were REALLY scorched, that might be a sign of fuel problems.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yep lean hole............And or a valve out of adjustment , hence the slapping that caused the spring to cut into the retainer. High rpm motor?
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From: Hollywood Babylon
lean hole? care to explain that a little bit? Like i said i was running pretty rich so i dont understand how it could have been lean, plus the other valves and the piston dont have the same damage. this happened at about 8000 RPM. I always made sure the valves were adjusted. I dont think there was any slapping of valves until the rod let go.
i was told the "heat" marks near the wrist pin were caused by heating the rod when installing the pins. so I dont know if thats heat damage or not. if it was, wouldnt the piston have similar heat damage evidence? it doesnt.
i was told the "heat" marks near the wrist pin were caused by heating the rod when installing the pins. so I dont know if thats heat damage or not. if it was, wouldnt the piston have similar heat damage evidence? it doesnt.
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From: Atlantis
Re: (RTW DC2)
.....what was your valve lash set at during the occurence?
That one retainer looks like it was experiencing coil bind..... or overrev?
What was the highest you ever took that motor to?
What rod bolts were you using?
That one retainer looks like it was experiencing coil bind..... or overrev?
What was the highest you ever took that motor to?
What rod bolts were you using?
Re: (RTW DC2)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RTW DC2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i was told the "heat" marks near the wrist pin were caused by heating the rod when installing the pins. so I dont know if thats heat damage or not. if it was, wouldnt the piston have similar heat damage evidence? it doesnt. </TD></TR></TABLE>
That's right. The discoloration is from installing the wrist pins into the rods.
My best guess is that there was some pre-ignition going on and fused the rings to the bore, stretched out the rod bolts, then tore out of the piston as the crank pulled away.
How did the cylinder wall and rings look when you removed the piston?
That's right. The discoloration is from installing the wrist pins into the rods.
My best guess is that there was some pre-ignition going on and fused the rings to the bore, stretched out the rod bolts, then tore out of the piston as the crank pulled away.
How did the cylinder wall and rings look when you removed the piston?
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From: Siege Perilous
Re: (IN VTEC)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Dirty/lean fuel injector? .</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's what happened to my car a while back, for whatever that's worth.
Burned a piston and a couple of valves...but didn't have anything like a bent or broken rod.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IN VTEC »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
...fused the rings to the bore, stretched out the rod bolts, then tore out of the piston as the crank pulled away.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That sounds possible.
That all this happened to only one piston/cylinder lends credence to the sticking or bad injector starting all this. (IMHO. I am not a mechanic.)
.</TD></TR></TABLE>That's what happened to my car a while back, for whatever that's worth.
Burned a piston and a couple of valves...but didn't have anything like a bent or broken rod.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IN VTEC »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
...fused the rings to the bore, stretched out the rod bolts, then tore out of the piston as the crank pulled away.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That sounds possible.
That all this happened to only one piston/cylinder lends credence to the sticking or bad injector starting all this. (IMHO. I am not a mechanic.)
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From: Hollywood Babylon
Re: (IN VTEC)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">.....what was your valve lash set at during the occurence?
That one retainer looks like it was experiencing coil bind..... or overrev?
What was the highest you ever took that motor to?
What rod bolts were you using? </TD></TR></TABLE>
valve lash was always set to stock spec. I had previously had the rev limiter set to 9500RPM, but never bounced it off the rev limiter when it was the high. when driving the car hard on the track generally I wouldnt take it past 8500-9000RPM as power started to fall off around there anyway. Those are ARP rod bolts.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IN VTEC »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
That's right. The discoloration is from installing the wrist pins into the rods.
My best guess is that there was some pre-ignition going on and fused the rings to the bore, stretched out the rod bolts, then tore out of the piston as the crank pulled away.
How did the cylinder wall and rings look when you removed the piston?</TD></TR></TABLE>
This is sort of what I originally thought happened. But doesnt appear to be the case. The piston looks fine besides the slight dings from the valves after the rod went, and so do the rings and cylinder wall. In fact, the piston can still be moved up and down by hand in the cylinder. Doesnt appear it seized up or anything like that.
Im still doubting the fautly injector theory. Wouldnt that have damaged the other valves in the cylinder as well? and even the piston should show signs of similar damage?
Heres what I think happened but doesnt explain the scorched valve. The first thing that happened was the rod bolt broke. Why, I dont know...spun bearing maybe? But when it let go, the rod began to twist to about 45 degrees in the cylinder(when I took the head off, you could see the piston was turned about 45 degrees). As the crank came around on the down stroke for that cylinder, the piston bottomed out on that ledge in the block(not sure of the technical term for that area) and because the rod wanted to keep going, it just ripped right out of the piston.
So I think thats how the physical damage occured, but it doesnt really explain what the hell happened with that valve or that retainer.
That one retainer looks like it was experiencing coil bind..... or overrev?
What was the highest you ever took that motor to?
What rod bolts were you using? </TD></TR></TABLE>
valve lash was always set to stock spec. I had previously had the rev limiter set to 9500RPM, but never bounced it off the rev limiter when it was the high. when driving the car hard on the track generally I wouldnt take it past 8500-9000RPM as power started to fall off around there anyway. Those are ARP rod bolts.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IN VTEC »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
That's right. The discoloration is from installing the wrist pins into the rods.
My best guess is that there was some pre-ignition going on and fused the rings to the bore, stretched out the rod bolts, then tore out of the piston as the crank pulled away.
How did the cylinder wall and rings look when you removed the piston?</TD></TR></TABLE>
This is sort of what I originally thought happened. But doesnt appear to be the case. The piston looks fine besides the slight dings from the valves after the rod went, and so do the rings and cylinder wall. In fact, the piston can still be moved up and down by hand in the cylinder. Doesnt appear it seized up or anything like that.
Im still doubting the fautly injector theory. Wouldnt that have damaged the other valves in the cylinder as well? and even the piston should show signs of similar damage?
Heres what I think happened but doesnt explain the scorched valve. The first thing that happened was the rod bolt broke. Why, I dont know...spun bearing maybe? But when it let go, the rod began to twist to about 45 degrees in the cylinder(when I took the head off, you could see the piston was turned about 45 degrees). As the crank came around on the down stroke for that cylinder, the piston bottomed out on that ledge in the block(not sure of the technical term for that area) and because the rod wanted to keep going, it just ripped right out of the piston.
So I think thats how the physical damage occured, but it doesnt really explain what the hell happened with that valve or that retainer.
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From: Chicagoland, IL
Re: (RTW DC2)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RTW DC2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Like i said i was running pretty rich so i dont understand how it could have been lean,</TD></TR></TABLE>
If 3 injectors are running 240cc/m and one was 120cc/m (dirty, defective, etc.) that would cause one cylinder/valve to get fuXored, even if it looked tuned on a wideband O2 meter.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IN VTEC »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My best guess is that there was some pre-ignition going on and fused the rings to the bore, stretched out the rod bolts, then tore out of the piston as the crank pulled away.</TD></TR></TABLE>
IANAM.... The burned valve very well could have caused a hot spot, and evil pre-ignition just blew the thing up.
Or yeah, piston could have froze.
Can you remind us what the pistons looked like?
<edit for picture of #3 cyl--- why the hell did it **** itself 20 degrees after the rod snapped? Seems like it couldn't have been frozen..>
If 3 injectors are running 240cc/m and one was 120cc/m (dirty, defective, etc.) that would cause one cylinder/valve to get fuXored, even if it looked tuned on a wideband O2 meter.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IN VTEC »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My best guess is that there was some pre-ignition going on and fused the rings to the bore, stretched out the rod bolts, then tore out of the piston as the crank pulled away.</TD></TR></TABLE>
IANAM.... The burned valve very well could have caused a hot spot, and evil pre-ignition just blew the thing up.
Or yeah, piston could have froze.Can you remind us what the pistons looked like?
<edit for picture of #3 cyl--- why the hell did it **** itself 20 degrees after the rod snapped? Seems like it couldn't have been frozen..>
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From: Hollywood Babylon
Re: (Chris F)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If 3 injectors are running 240cc/m and one was 120cc/m (dirty, defective, etc.) that would cause one cylinder/valve to get fuXored, even if it looked tuned on a wideband O2 meter.
IANAM.... The burned valve very well could have caused a hot spot, and evil pre-ignition just blew the thing up. Or yeah, piston could have froze.
Can you remind us what the pistons looked like?
<edit for picture of #3 cyl--- why the hell did it **** itself 20 degrees after the rod snapped? Seems like it couldn't have been frozen..>
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Im not doubting that the valve could have been scorched by a faulty injector...but what I am doubting is why only the one valve shows signs of that problem. Wouldnt ALL the valves and the piston show those signs as well, instead of just one valve?
And like I said above, the piston moves by hand in the cylinder so I dont think it seized up during all this. I think the reason the piston turned is because one of the rod bolts let go, therefore only holding one side of the rod, and it began to turn the rod/piston assembly before it finally came flying out of the block.
If 3 injectors are running 240cc/m and one was 120cc/m (dirty, defective, etc.) that would cause one cylinder/valve to get fuXored, even if it looked tuned on a wideband O2 meter.
IANAM.... The burned valve very well could have caused a hot spot, and evil pre-ignition just blew the thing up.
Or yeah, piston could have froze.Can you remind us what the pistons looked like?
<edit for picture of #3 cyl--- why the hell did it **** itself 20 degrees after the rod snapped? Seems like it couldn't have been frozen..>
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Im not doubting that the valve could have been scorched by a faulty injector...but what I am doubting is why only the one valve shows signs of that problem. Wouldnt ALL the valves and the piston show those signs as well, instead of just one valve?
And like I said above, the piston moves by hand in the cylinder so I dont think it seized up during all this. I think the reason the piston turned is because one of the rod bolts let go, therefore only holding one side of the rod, and it began to turn the rod/piston assembly before it finally came flying out of the block.
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From: Greenville, SC
Re: (RTW DC2)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RTW DC2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Im not doubting that the valve could have been scorched by a faulty injector...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Did you sell me faulty injectors? I'm scared to put these in my motor now.
Im not doubting that the valve could have been scorched by a faulty injector...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Did you sell me faulty injectors? I'm scared to put these in my motor now.
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From: Chicagoland, IL
Re: (RTW DC2)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RTW DC2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Im not doubting that the valve could have been scorched by a faulty injector...but what I am doubting is why only the one valve shows signs of that problem. Wouldnt ALL the valves and the piston show those signs as well, instead of just one valve?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah, you'd think at least the exhaust valves would look about the same.. Which valve was it? Err, which exhaust valve was it?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RTW DC2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And like I said above, the piston moves by hand in the cylinder so I dont think it seized up during all this. I think the reason the piston turned is because one of the rod bolts let go, therefore only holding one side of the rod, and it began to turn the rod/piston assembly before it finally came flying out of the block. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah, you can see in the picture that the piston rotated and the valves hit it in a cocked position. So it wasn't totally seized; it moved that far
Maybe the detonation snapped a bolt, or bent the rod, and that started in motion.
Was the damaged retainer on the same scorched valve?
Got any pictures of the bottom of the piston? Just curious, not sure it would be of any use.
Yeah, you'd think at least the exhaust valves would look about the same.. Which valve was it? Err, which exhaust valve was it?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RTW DC2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And like I said above, the piston moves by hand in the cylinder so I dont think it seized up during all this. I think the reason the piston turned is because one of the rod bolts let go, therefore only holding one side of the rod, and it began to turn the rod/piston assembly before it finally came flying out of the block. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah, you can see in the picture that the piston rotated and the valves hit it in a cocked position. So it wasn't totally seized; it moved that far
Maybe the detonation snapped a bolt, or bent the rod, and that started in motion.Was the damaged retainer on the same scorched valve?
Got any pictures of the bottom of the piston? Just curious, not sure it would be of any use.
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From: Hollywood Babylon
Im not sure if that retainer is the one that was attached to that valve. I wish I knew for sure but Im assuming it is.
Brad I have the flow chart for those injectors from RC(or maybe I sent the chart to you I dont recall), and they only have around 30K miles on them. You can either get them flow tested or send them back to me. Let me know what you want to do.
Brad I have the flow chart for those injectors from RC(or maybe I sent the chart to you I dont recall), and they only have around 30K miles on them. You can either get them flow tested or send them back to me. Let me know what you want to do.
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From: Hollywood Babylon
Re: Problem determination/diagnosis, why did my motor a'splode? (1993sir05)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1993sir05 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">over reving, will do that. and dont get mad at what i say, you asked for an opinion so i gave you one. so what. </TD></TR></TABLE>
well your opinion is worthless, stunna. WHAT
well your opinion is worthless, stunna. WHAT
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From: Chicagoland, IL
Re: Problem determination/diagnosis, why did my motor a'splode? (1993sir05)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1993sir05 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">over reving, will do that. and dont get mad at what i say, you asked for an opinion so i gave you one. so what. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Dude, you shoulda got ARP rod bolts too. You are teh suck.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=901524
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RTW DC2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well it happened. 8000 RPM in 2nd gear, shifted to 3rd, and that was it. POP, smoke screen from hell, metal clanging and banging all over the place. toast. At first thought, I thought it was the dreaded crower retainers. not the case, they appear fine and so do the valves. Rod is bent to ****, and bluish near the piston end so it appears to have gotten very hot, not sure if thats the cause or not. the piston is either in pieces or stuck in the cylinder. one of the ARP rod bolt is gone on one side, so maybe that was it. oil levels were fine, checked that morning, and car doesnt run lean at all. tough to tell what caused it. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Dude, you shoulda got ARP rod bolts too. You are teh suck.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=901524
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RTW DC2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well it happened. 8000 RPM in 2nd gear, shifted to 3rd, and that was it. POP, smoke screen from hell, metal clanging and banging all over the place. toast. At first thought, I thought it was the dreaded crower retainers. not the case, they appear fine and so do the valves. Rod is bent to ****, and bluish near the piston end so it appears to have gotten very hot, not sure if thats the cause or not. the piston is either in pieces or stuck in the cylinder. one of the ARP rod bolt is gone on one side, so maybe that was it. oil levels were fine, checked that morning, and car doesnt run lean at all. tough to tell what caused it. </TD></TR></TABLE>
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