...but they did put the cams in the head so they could blow it up, right? You paid them for that labor, right? Did they pull the head to inspect the damage? Were you charged for that?

 

I wonder how the court would feel about knowing that you took parts from one motor, mated it with parts from a different motor which we're never designed to work together, and then had aftermarket modifications installed and in turn the motor broke.

 

He might not have a hard time with that as he can use proof of other builds doing the similar thing. Proper words of choice can def persuade a judge to understand how car enthusiast have done this time and time again.

 

People have run stock bottom end B20s (without opening valve reliefs) with GSC N2 cams without issues? Any proof on that specific combination?

Just doing a quick search (using Pro 2 cams as they are similar and more commonly used), pretty much everyone that has checked clearance states the ITR cams are the largest you can go. Some have even had issues with those.

https://honda-tech.com/forums/all-mo...setup-2766149/

 

as a consumer, i trusted his professional opinion and i went with the fact that "he used them with no problem before"
i also trusted the OWNERS professional opinion that "he wont need them (the camshaft specifications), and will ask you for them if he does"

again, no questions were asked of my build WHATSOEVER. They blindly went with it, and again, said its worked before. again, i have all of this in chat with timestamps before AND after the tune.

the only thing will be the waiver, which me and my attorney are trying to squash because they did not take the proper care that a "reasonable person" would take to ensure the fact these problems would not occur. (this is basically the definition of a "tort" case, which is what we have filed)

regardless of the amount we are filing for (we lowered to $4986 -just the replacement cost- to comply with small claims procedures down from ~9000 -damages + replacement-), I am really hoping i get a judge who will take all into consideration.

the tuner himself has had three lawsuits against him (i spoke with two of the people, finding their names through judiciary search). one, was owed 7100, as he paid upfront for an engine build, and the tuner used ebay parts and priced them at top shelf part prices. the other won a 10,000 lawsuit, which caused the tuner to file bankruptcy. his previous tuning shop went under, too.

the OWNER of the current shop is being sued for 6 figures (cant disclose amount) as he scammed an initial investor of the company and kicked him out after the business tookoff.

____ of course i didnt find all of this out until the attorney dug this up, and i will absolutely bring it up in court, when time comes, redgardless if it is objected.

so basically, they did not due dilligence to ensure my motor would not be destroyed. they have the last and final dyno sheet, and the first two (non vtec pulls) were "overwritten".
they said themselves there is no accurate RPM reading on the dyno, which in theory SHOULD void the contract i signed, stating i wanted an 8100 redline, too.

ive looked into GSC n2 cams on a b20 for what seems to be hours, and i did not find a single post about them being used in a build like this one- i think he got money hungry for a tune, and said bring it in, without knowing anything about them, because again, he said hes used them, and he didnt ask any questions, i was NOT allowed to be with the car while install and tune happened, and again---- denied the opportunity to give him the camshaft specs from the manufacturer.......

i genuinely hope and pray i get a good judge, because to my understanding and what i was told by the lawyer, is that the official rules of law, are more relaxed in small claims to give pro se plaintiffs and defendants equal opportunity to give a case, and i really believe i have a good case.... it may be a tough fight, however, given the fact they did the install, they did the adjustments, they SAID they did the p2v, and they blew up a PERFECTLY running motor, that finished its break in, i think they have no ground to stand on, except for the waiver, which will be the only obsticle, and it may not even be taken into consideration, should i get a good judge

 

Weren't specifically talking about the cam's of OP's choice here.


​​​​​​​Read that.

 

Why would they ask questions of your build? You first met them with the engine already together and installed and seemed to know what you were doing.

 

Any competent shop would inquire what has been done prior to the current work in order to cover themselves.

Just like any competent customer would research the shop as well.

 

again, the case we are fighting is not a legal contract lawsuit- its a TORT case.. the filing has been accepted as of today and is now set in motion. we filed the evidence exhibits too as well as the statement of particulars.

from what I hear, a judge will most likely listen to my entire testimony before taking into consideration if the waiver will hold any legal ground, as they did the work to the vehicle.

ALSO:
I contacted GSC, personally. they sent me another copy of the camshaft specifications (the ones which the tuner / owner did not take)-
the tuner adjusted my valves to .006/.008, supposedly, which is in writing, along with the other work.

it turns out that the cams were supposed to be .008/.008, as well, which is not what they were set to. major difference, not quite, HOWEVER, it adds to the fact they did not do everything to manufacturer specification.
lets add this to the 8k redline they bypassed (which they will fight, despite not having records for, before the last one), they did not even SUGGEST that the build would work with the specs of the cams, etc.

so yes..... I also spoke with the shop that did the swap as well. I showed them the pictures and told them what happened and they go "dammmmmmmmmmmn, it was running so good too! why did they put those in there? they had to know that!"

the service writer said he was going to take his boosted s2k there for a tune and he goes "HELL no, I'm not going there now!"

 

Unfortunately, the above doesn't bode well for you. You will most likely win your case but most likely won't see any payment as they will likely declare business bankruptcy on their LLC. If that doesn't play out and the judge orders their or his (owner) wages garnished...garnishment is usually capped at 10-15% of disposable income. So, you may get paid but it could be a long time if/until you are paid in full.
I hope I'm wrong for your sake.

 

Judge might want to know a little background, but then again he probably wouldn't understand.

 

That is the main issue, all the important technical bits will all be complete gibberish to 99% of the courtroom.

 

There's been plenty of times where we put aftermarket cams in OEM b20 block setups using VTEC heads. People who recycle this rhetoric of you not being able to use a cam bigger than ITR got that from the internet and they were spooked to see if it was true or false themselves. For instance, lately we used pro 1 on stock b20 block with vtec head and the setup made 208 and 151 torque N/A. We beat on the motor over and over and even boosted it, nothing ever happened. Thing is, cams were degreed and the duration came out to be 255*/255* and about 12.4(maybe more, ill recheck)lift or something, smaller than what the GSC N2 came out to be lift wise. the GSC came out to be 264*/260* and 12.3mm/11.8mm lift. even at 0,0 on the cam gears you should have been ok, but then again not enough info on the engine to make much judgement. Hope that even though its gonna be hard, you can get some money back in your settlement. im sure this sucks man

 

Hey VTEC, thanks for the reply.
Basically I was running ...

B20b block with b20z2 PHK pistons
CRX si b16a head (89 spec)
Supertech DVsprings and K20 STYLE retainers
N2 cams (gsr before, ran perfectly fine)
The head may have been milled previously. Unsure.

For the record, I was made aware that the tech who worked on the motor, timing, installation of cams AND tune, did Not do the valve adjustment to correct specs, of .008in/.008ex.
He did .006in/.008ex

Would that alone hold up in court, enough to make a judge see that he caused the issue?
Coincidencally, because he didn't set the correct valve lash to manufacture spec AFTER being told that he didn't need the camshaft card (specifications), my intake valve reliefs were destroyed and broke valves.
ON TOP of that, he even admitted after it blew up, that, when he was suggesting parts for the rebuild, he recommended "new cool cast pistons with much bigger valve reliefs"

I was skeptical from the beginning to use those cams in the first place, and I was assured they would have made good power and would be fine for my setup, as is.
I trusted his professional opinion, and his professional opinion blew up my new motor, and then, on top of that, he vandalized my car when I was not there, by decalling the middle of my windshield with his own custom made bumper sticker that's basically saying "YOU MAD?" (in essence).

I also found out that the company is under three other lawsuits (active) since their opening last year, and the tuner himself filed bankruptcy for losing 17,000 in judgements when he worked at another tuning shop. If you Google his name, the first 5 things are horror stories about him. Luckily, I'm suing the company/owner and not the tuner.

Need advice, ppl.
I also need to get a qualified expert to testify. Anyone have an idea of who I can get / how to get one?

 

So your setup ran fine even in VTEC with no issues prior to them tuning it? As far as an expert to testify, sorry I cant help. I dont know anyone who'd be able to help you there.

 

So when adjusting the clearance, what is the tolerance for the valves?

You keep blaming .006" for the intake and that he should have set it to .008"

 

As was stated by the tuner just a couple of posts ago. The big issue is the cams were not degree'd. And from what I understand, you cant degree them with the motor in the car.

 

The tuner is posting in this thread?

 

Also, op, you might want to read that cam sheet again. States 'Valve Clearance HOT' should be .008" .008"

 

Not "THE" tuner but a professional tuner.

I got the impression this guy builds and tunes motors as a profession.

 

don't recall anybody disputing that vtec cams can't be used on a b20 w/ vtec head....

 

It was commented that the particular cams put into the motor at the tuner shop can't be used with those pistons. The pistons need larger valve reliefs is what was stated.

However, what seems to be the real and accurate info is that it can be used but only if the cams are degree'd.

I think the confusion is, the cams can't be used in stock degree format without larger valve reliefs in the pistons.

How the courts are going to look at it is where the question lies. It's obvious the shop who did the work doesn't actually care or have the expertise to build/tune custom motors. If they did they wouldn't ignore specs nor recommend just slapping in any old cam and assume it's going to be fine without doing the proper work (degreeing) on the cam install.

 

That would be one noisy engine with clearances that loose when HOT... and by the way, what is the definition of "HOT" ??? What temperature is that exactly ??? The factory service manual outlines a valve adjustment process specifying valve train temperatures to be below 100' F... which would be closer to COLD. A few cam manufacturers have specified a "HOT" clearance on their cam cards, and I wonder if this is actually a misprint.

As for this idea that setting the Intake clearance at .006" instead of .008"... there should be .060" between the valve face and the piston dome/relief pocket... that .002" that is being blamed for the engine failure is NOT the problem. The impact marks on the intake valve reliefs are deeper than .002", so the valve would have hit either way.

As for this idea that you can drop a VTEC head on a LS or CRV shortblock without modifying the piston valve reliefs... I spoke at length with my local Honda Tuning Shop and the owner there says that he relieves ALL when he assembles an engine of this type. There are too many variables with respect to head surfacing, gasket thickness as well as camshaft lift and duration to just assume that it will work because someone on the net said so. He did mention that the CRV P8R piston has more relief stock... so it would have the best chance of survival if you failed to modify the piston. He has seen countless failures just like the OP's from people simply failing to modify the piston reliefs and running even stock cams straight up without degreeing them. He also said if I posted this, there would be people who come back and say "I have run mine for XX months/years with no problems whatsoever"... and for those people, he said "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then...". They are, in his experience, the exception... not the rule.

 

Well dude is complaining about them dropping the cams in on a hot engine.

Card specifies hot, kind of making that argument moot.

Especially when tightening the lash .002" under an aftermarket spec which is still looser than factory.

I still think the only case OP has is the vandalism, the whole engine debacle seems like it's too muddy to swing one way or another.

 

Back from the dead, guys. Thanks for sticking around.

Okay, so I wanted to clear up a few things with the motor and lawsuit and stuff.

My affidavit trial was last month. They filed their intention to defend on the day of the hearing, so it was pushed back to the end of the month.

Just wanna recap.
Tuner said he can do the swap no prob, but hates cam swaps- would have to charge extra.
States he could tune the car no problem with the cams
States he (incorrectly) set the valve lash
Requested redline 8100
Dissect the Neptune tune he sent me. 137mph.
Speed @8k rpm LS tranny = 105mph calculated
Tuner states = "running an unknown cam peofile, with unknown pistons and unknown springs are a recipe for disaster"
I have ALL specifions for ALL parts, and was denied from giving them.
Have screenshots from GSC power division- they state "checking clearances and degreeing motor is the most important step and should never be overlooked"
I have a statement from the tow driver stating that the tuner vandalized my car AND an admission from the tuner
I have statements from the owner admitting TWICE that his dyno is not calibrated and there was no true RPM reading during my pulls- TWICE.
I have statements from another shop, stating a total of 4200 for new parts, machining, assembly, degree, install and tune
Have itemized statements of a total for 5400 sourcing all parts and labor.

I pulled the valves and springs out of the head to bring to court
Few of the Valves are bent in an S shape. May pull a piston to bring for court as well to come with any additionalevidence I can

I'm very aware, now, that the pistons (phk) have small valve reliefs. Something the tuner should have mentioned, (if he's been building for 15 years), I think he failed to mention that the cams WOULD need degreeing as well.
So tell me... Why would you blindly run big cams in an unknown build if you've been building Honda's for 15 years?
Again, they have come up with NO actual reason why the motor went. They blamed big cams, possible install failure, possible incorrect valve spring pressures, possibility that the springs needed shimming... They blamed the possibility that a keeper fell out (even though all of them were installed when I pulled it apart)- they haven't given me a single reason why it happened, yet everyone here knows exactly why, which is running cams with pistons that needed bigger reliefs which is what the tuner suggested after it blew up.

Again, I've got screenshots of it all.