apexinghonda

The thread starter said this was to be a "business" car so I take it this car will not see the track or a Solo event. If you are not pressing this car at 9/10s+ from track edge to track edge what difference does FWD vs. RWD really make? Actually in inclement weather at less than 9/10ths FWD should get the edge. So then what does count? Build quality, ergonomics, cockpit layout and exterior looks. I don't have a TL. I have a TSX. I love the interior on the car. It is well thought out and the controls are smooth as butter. The tactile feel of the Acura controls are top notch. Acura is more reliable than BMW. My wife has a BMW convertible which is her second BMW. Their controls don't feel nearly as smooth. I don't like their layout. I will take "jap" engineering over german engineering on the choices you have mentioned.

Barry H.

Barry H.

jlucas

I'm not sure why this is even a comparison (unless you have money to throw away):

A TL 6MT with summer tires is $34.1k, a 325 with similar options is $39.9k. This is from a "build your own" that I just did so these are MSRPs including destination.

Not to mention the power. Have you driven both? You have to start talking 330 to even get in the poker game.

I'm as pro RWD as the next enthusiast (S2000, Z06 Vette here, ex-E36M3) but not at that price or power point.

just4fun

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by apexinghonda &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The thread starter said this was to be a "business" car so I take it this car will not see the track or a Solo event. If you are not pressing this car at 9/10s+ from track edge to track edge what difference does FWD vs. RWD really make? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I guess you do not know J28S. I bet the car does see the track, auto-x course, so on and so on. Between the 330i and TL would be a hard choice. I havenot drove the TL yet but I would pick the bimmer.

eMpAtHy

TL hands down.

George Knighton

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by apexinghonda &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The thread starter said this was to be a "business" car so I take it this car will not see the track or a Solo event. If you are not pressing this car at 9/10s+ from track edge to track edge what difference does FWD vs. RWD really make? </TD></TR></TABLE>
I am probably going to get slammed, but I really believe there is a real ultimate safety advantage to FWD.

My very first cars were Porsches, but I am doing a hell of a lot with my DC2 ITR that I would never have done with the Porsches.

It just seems that you can save yourself in almost any emergency or high performance manoeuvre with FWD, either by putting your foot down and pulling your way out of it or by using an instantaneous lift throttle point to redirect the car before putting your foot down again.

Dented Rx7

Not going to slam you but comparing a porsche's handling to FWD is unfair...go drive and E-36 or a 240sx for that matter on the track and you should feel as safe as you are in your ITR


I vote for a CPO e-46 330 w/ the perf package over either the TL or the e-90 (plus 100000 miles warr)


just as quick 0-60 and better looking....undermeath it all i keep thinking the Tl is really just a honda accord w/ the a v6

or the 6 speed G-35 sedan..nice cars, and those VQs really sound nice

ps. how about that honda accord v6 6-speed w/ 17" wheels you can get for 2006...nice car, to bad the current edition accords have one of the ugliest rears in the land
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I am probably going to get slammed, but I really believe there is a real ultimate safety advantage to FWD.

My very first cars were Porsches, but I am doing a hell of a lot with my DC2 ITR that I would never have done with the Porsches.

It just seems that you can save yourself in almost any emergency or high performance manoeuvre with FWD, either by putting your foot down and pulling your way out of it or by using an instantaneous lift throttle point to redirect the car before putting your foot down again.</TD></TR></TABLE>


Modified by Dented Rx7 at 1:09 AM 10/3/2005

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dented Rx7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I vote for a CPO e-46 330</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sounds like one of these:



<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dented Rx7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">undermeath it all i keep thinking the Tl is really just a honda accord w/ the a v6</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, they say the same thing about the NSX...

1GreyTeg

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yeah, they say the same thing about the NSX...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Who says an NSX is Honda Accord?


PS I scheduled a TL test drive for the 10th to see if it's what I'm interested in.

Mr.E.G.

i want a TL really bad. they drive good and i think the fit and finish is better, not to mention in the TL there is anoticable difference in acceleration, and its less expensive. i know that for non racing type driving its better than the bmw because its less likeley to oversteer in the event of ice. and when it all comes down to it, front wheel drive or not the TL can be made to handle quite well.

the only problem is that it is so ******* big. i want a four door to carry around multiple people, but i dont need a big four door, and the TL is way bigger than the 3 series. the 3 series feels more nimble, and i feel like i can pass easier because i know where all of its dimensions start and end.

i know for every logical reason, i should get the TL. and i dotn much care for the bmw, but its small. and i like that in a car.

god help me.

Def

I'd probably pick the BMW between the two, but I'd really try hard to swing a G35 instead of those two.

I've never been impressed with BMWs "entry level" 3 series offering, although they're getting a little better each generation about not making it so *yawn* whenever you hit the gas.

The TL looks very sharp, and Hondas are really well put together, but I think that unless you knew you'd never really drive it hard you'd be making the wrong choice stepping into one. That's a whole lotta power and weight for those front wheels to handle...

J28S

Well, the 330i with the sport and premium packages is at the top over the TL now. It has the bling bling appeal over the TL by far (i.e. the car - surely not me - got a lot of looks everywhere I went over the weekend) and the car is a blast to drive, mucho fun. So, when I before I dropped it back off at the dealer this morning, I went over to the Acura dealership. I told them the 330i/325i had the sporty feel and performance over the TL (i.e. suspension and looks). They said a "sister" dealership employee has a TL with the A-Spec package (Note: Thanks Corey) and said they could have it here one day this week for my to try out. So, I said sure. The A-Spec has the 18" wheels, aero kit, rear spoiler, and sport tuned suspension (that's it) all of which are dealer installed options. Granted the BMW place as a little pissed when I dropped off the car and said see ya...I'll call you in a couple days.

OK experts out there...let's revisit the A-Spec package. I can see the dealer putting on the tire/wheels, steering wheel aero kit and rear spoiler...BUT they also say they have special shocks and springs they add at the dealership. Anyone have any info on this? I'm curious...

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J28S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">OK experts out there...let's revisit the A-Spec package. I can see the dealer putting on the tire/wheels, steering wheel aero kit and rear spoiler...BUT they also say they have special shocks and springs they add at the dealership. Anyone have any info on this? I'm curious...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, that's all part of the A Spec package, which is dealer-installed.

You can read more about it on the Acura website by clicking here, and in a review in Car and Driver here.

1GreyTeg

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Yes, that's all part of the A Spec package, which is dealer-installed.

You can read more about it on the Acura website by clicking here, and in a review in Car and Driver here.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

BUT if you are not into getting the whole package or just want say the suspension and wanted to buy wheels at a later date or other aftermarket wheels, the A-spec suspension frequently sells between $500. to $750. online at Ebay directly from Acura dealerships accross the nation. I know Curry Acura in Scarsdale NY and another in Las Vegas have sold numerous A spec suspenions at those prices brand new through their dealership parts departments.

I personally could do without any of the "Aero" junk and would only want the suspenion upgrade combined with a 6spd MT (summer tires) & Nav.

Of course I still need to drive the blasted thing to see what's what. But my wife and I were already impressed when we sat in them at the NY autoshow.

Just something to think about.

J28S

Does anyone know if there is a place online you can buy BMW parts/accessories (i.e. like 325i emblem for a new 2006 car)?

Note: Comparing the 330i and TL (A-spec) package, it really depends on what you want. If you want a more luxury car, then pick the TL. But head to head, the 330i wins them all and wins for being the most fun. Plus...I got the 6yr/100k mi warranty package included...

As for the TL, for a 2005 model, the dealership had a bad attitude. WHen I did get to drive the car, the salesman didn't have a clue what he was talking about. The car drove kind of sloppy (not the A-Spec). They want top dollar (even though 2006 models are out) because it is a 6spd, they priced the A-Spec package at $5,000, and when I said I could buy it and put it on the car for around $4,000 and have the stock wheels/tires to sell...they stated there was no way a customer could buy the package, only dealerships can get them and they can take upwards to a week to get. Then of course he wanted everyone ounce of information about me, etc. etc. etc. It actually took about 45 minutes before I could even sit in the car. The A-Spec package drove a little better, but not $5k worth.

At the BMW place, the guy asked me for my license, made a copy and gave me the key and said have fun.

1GreyTeg

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J28S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

At the BMW place, the guy asked me for my license, made a copy and gave me the key and said have fun.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Question about time provided for your test drives, how long was provided for the Acura and how long for the BMW?

Reason I ask is I requested at least 30 minutes to 1 hour from the acura dealership I will be test driving on Monday and they are trying to give me a run around and saying 10 minutes max? I find that ridiculous especially since I want my wife to test drive it as well and that seems a hint short on minutes to me.

IIRC BMW and other companies used to lend out cars for a day or even weekends to drive and test.

I started my shopping around online and have done my business with this particular dealership as such and with 2 short phone calls because I had such a positive sales experience from Chevy when I bought from them this way last year. But it seems this sales person avoids email contact and uses my business number and neglects to use my extension to get to me and uses the general mailbox instead. Not the kind of lack of privacy I had in mind.

getfast

So a certain fast NASA-MA roadracer/official just picked up an '05 TL 6-speed with Nav as his new daily driver. I rode in the car last night spiritedly and all I can say is "wow!" Seriously great fit and finish, comfortable, roomy, very quick, and great handling for its size and powertrain layout. I was thoroughly impressed with it for the price, and as a daily driver I believe I would pick it over an E46 3-series after all (I still haven't been in an E90 though.)

Anyway I've sent him the link to this discussion so hopefully he will show up and talk about his exact thought process facing this same decision recently. Like most, he wanted a BMW but ended up with what on most counts looks like a better choice for a daily driver.

I'd still want RWD if it was EVER gonna be tracked though

Jon

CAR2112

For what it's worth, I had the internal debate over which car to choose and I ended up going with the TL.

When it comes right down to it, the TL for me was just the better choice. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge BMW fan and am actually in the process of building a Spec E30 for next season (just got rid of the Spec Miata after 5 years and 4 championships). My initial thoughts were that I wanted a kick ***, rear-drive, classy car for a daily driver and the 3-Series BMW certain fits into that catagory. However, while I make very good money, I'm not a "wealthy" individual, so I certainly had to look at and consider the bottom-line economics of my purchase. It was here when the TL got added to the list. First off, I saw a few on the road and I really liked their styling at first sight. Then I started doing some research and found that they had more power and more goodies available on them than the BMW offered; without draining the bank. I wasn't overly optimistic about the car being a front-driver and several people (who of course, as it turned never actually drove a TL) warned me about torque-steer and understeer, etc. and blah, blah, blah...and said "stay away from the TL...go with the BMW". I'm glad that in the end, I listened to the advice I got from both Bryan Dobbins and Chris Mitchum (both are very accomplished roadracers that have competed successfully at the pro level)(Chris actually bought a TL himself back in May) who said "go drive it first before you make your decision, they're great cars!"

So, with a little effort, I located three 6Speed TL's at Priority Acura in Chesapeake, VA and setup an appointment to go drive one. It took me all of about 2 seconds to realize that not only is the Acura a better car, it's subsantially less expensive than a comparably equipped BMW and In my opinion, has sexier styling. Furthermore, I believe the reliability and maintenance will be better as well as the resale.

Mine is fully decked-out with Nav System which is all voice activated and fully integrated with the car so I can control every function from operating the Nav to operating the radio, climate controls and everything else with the touch of a button and a voice command. The torque steer and understeer are hardly noticable driving on the street unless you're REALLY ******* it...on the track it might be a different story, but this car will never see track use so that concern/warning that's floating around out there is BS!

Bottom-line is the TL is one bad-*** car!! I'll put it up against any 3-Series any day and go line by line through the list of considerations and I'll bet that the TL will be the choice that any open-minded, reasonable person in a position similar to mine will make.

Chuck Reyes
NASA-MA Official/Racer

1GreyTeg

This is stuff good to see and hear.

As I understand it, there is some sort of difference with the 2006's as per adjustment for the "torque steer" but I never found out what exactly it was or if it is just another program added to the VSA. Torque steer? Blagch, My integra is chock full of that and it's not a reason I wouldn't have bought it. The added TPS looks intriguing as well this season.

And I agree that the TL will never or more than likely Not see a track but may occasionally see an autocross. The vast majority of us have other cars for those vices and is not what I'd consider the TL anyway.

J28S

Well, I did not end up with the TL, I ended up with a bimmer, 6spd, premium package, sport package, heated seats, etc. Why some may ask....good question.

Let's see....line by line...
First and foremost, the new BMW body style is HOT!

Power - both are pretty even (feel and specs), but the 330i did feel like it had more low end torque...launching and low RPM in a higher gear...didn't have to down shift. If the TL didn't have a LSD, it would be a bitch to drive.

Tranny - both 6 speed, but the TL felt a little notchy compared to the 330i. The BMW feels more like a sports car, while the TL feels more like a luxury car. It took a minute to get use to the TL while the BMW felt good the first time.

Audio/Bluetooth - the edge goes to the bimmer, but the TL salesperson pretty much lied and said the stereo system for the TL was something it wasn't. It's a Panasonic stereo system, not some exotic special stereo made solely for the TL that went though blah blah blah. Bluetooth both work about the same.

Suspension / Handling - the TL A-Spec felt like someone put a set of stiffer springs on the car. It just felt a little stiffer but didn't perform any different. Coming out of a turn, you didn't feel like you were in control and couldn't compensate with the throttle. While it was better than the stock TL, I wasn't overly impressed. I guess I had higher expectations. The torque steer was a pain in the *** though. The bimmer's sport package felt good...felt like someone put a set of Koni's on it. The car didn't sway too much going through some tight quick turns, and just felt like a sports car. And when you hit bumps, it didn't feel as bad (not like the TL A-Spec). Also, I'll throw in here the seats. In the TL, the seats didn't wrap around you. Going through the turns, you had to brace yourself too much and your upper body still went side to side. The bimmer - the seats wrapped around you, you could power adjust the area around your upper body to fit very snug. The bimmer driver seat gets a big Also, the brakes on the bimmer feel better, felt like I could stop quicker and was in better control than the TL.

Safety - my #1 issue cause my family comes first - BMW wins - Here's my likes BMW has the 5star for front and rear (TL has a 4star on the side). The Xenon adapative headlights are a plus...I didn't even buy the car/test drive over the weekend, and on a tight road going to my house they helped me avoid hitting a dog in the road. If they didn't have them...I would have hit it. Also it is pretty neat how they automatically level to the road. The active cruise control is also nice on the interstate. You don't have to worry about the car in front of you slowing down or speeding up...more of a comfort feature. The automatic air filtration is also nice, if you are behind a diesel truck or something it will automatically switch to recirculate... Rain sensing wipers is also nice. Put it on auto and you don't have to worry about turning the off, intermident, fast, blah blah blah. Low pressure tire warning system is also a plus, but I think the 2006 TL will have. BMW Assist / GPS satelitte system, you're in a wreck, the BMW assist automatically calls the police/ambulance and tells them your location. blah blah blah

Maintenance - TL doesn't offer a plan, but the BMW does...very inexpensive. I don't pay anything for maintenance for 6 year, 100,000 miles.

Warranty - both about the same but for some reason the BMW extended warranty was cheaper than the TL...also 6 year, 100,000 miles.

Price - Acura dealership was an *** and they want top dollar for the 2005 TL whereas the 2006 TLs are out. So, let's add together $33,000 plus $5,000 for the A-Spec package (note go through the dealership and it will be under warranty), so we're at $38,000 for a 2005 TL. For a 2006 330i (Hendrick BMW in Hickory, NC) can pick up a premium & sport package for $39,000 (you can also go on eBay to confirm this as well)....add in $2k for 100,000 mile warranty and maintenance plan or not.

Service - not even a comparison.
The Acura salesperson didn't know what he was talking about and tried way to hard to sell me the car. Every day (sometimes twice a day) he would call and tell me someone was looking at the car and he thinks it was sold, then he would call me back and say he told whomever that I wanted it. The later in the day, do the same thing again. Pain in the ***. He would leave messages on my mobile phone, home phone, office phone, email. They were also argumentative on other things. Also, don't even mention taking it on a track....that was a mistake.
The BMW place was a very good car buying experience. Everyone was laid back. No one called me once nor did that ask for any information. They actually comprehended what the words "I'm just looking at the current time" really meant. Many of the staff belonged to te BMW club and were very insistent that I take it to the track...they encourage it. Some of the guys actually knew who I was and they were also instructors, one even races. They even offered tickets for this weekend's race at VIR. They didn't act like they knew the answers to everything and actually researched a couple of my questions. If the service was switched, then I may have bought a TL...ya never know.

Now...you know the rest of the story...

Nate

good choice on the bimmer! I really do love the e90's, just something about them.

CAR2112

Hey there J28S,

You make some very good points...guess it just comes down to preference/opinion, price/affordability and individual circumstance. In my case the TL won. In the end we both got ourselves kick-*** cars!!

Sounds like you dealt with both a lousey salesperson and a lousey dealership, Acura-wise. I got my car for substantially less than what you were quoted. If I had to choose the Acura vs Bimmer at those prices, maybe my choice would've been different, but in my case the TL was almost $10k less than the figures your talking about.

Congrats on your purchase. I'm sure you're gonna love the car as much as I love mine.

jlucas

Just a few comment to clear up any mis-information.

Torque steer on the TL is primarily a low speed phenomenon. Think parking lot or 90 deg stop light turn -&gt; high steering angle and too much throttle. At the track it's pretty much not an issue.

A stock 6mt w/summer tires will surprise quite a few cars at the track. I know there were some pretty surprised NASA-OH members when we had one out last season ('04).

The audio system on the TL is unique as it's one of the few DVD-Audio systems available in a car. Regular CDs sound good, DVD-A is unbelievable.

A-spec pkg is primarily an appearance pkg with minor spring and damping changes, plus being dealer installed it's not very high on the dollar to value scale. Going for the summer tire is however very noticable and a good value.

Sorry to hear about your bad luck with the dealer, there are certainly not all that way.

Hard to believe you went from comparing to a 325 to a 330. That's a significant cost difference.

I'm sure you'll be happy with the 330 if a bit lighter in the wallet.

Yosshaa

tl

George Knighton

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jpl95si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
A stock 6mt w/summer tires will surprise quite a few cars at the track. I know there were some pretty surprised NASA-OH members when we had one out last season ('04).</TD></TR></TABLE>+

Couple of surprised BSR instructors at a recent Summit Point event, too.

Guy was cooking the brakes somehow, but I am pretty sure that was a typical HPDE situation where he was just using them too much. Had the Brembo brakes, too.

Does anybody know what kind of brakes are on the Hondata Honda Challenge car out west?

1GreyTeg

Well I emailed about 5 dealers requesting quotes yesterday before leaving work. Even included one out of state that I bought both the R's from and had great experience with.

The first one to respond was last night at 7:30 pm with $32,995. minus tax & title for a 06 anthracite/ebony 6spd with summer tires and navigation, and mentioned that it would be 6 to 8 weeks for delivery.