After reading an article that Descartesfool posted a link to, I started wondering.

I have been going on the assumption that I need to develop the driver first and foremost. As a result, I built a car with a pretty well-known good handling setup. I set the car up in my garage (sway bar, shock adjustments), got about 35lbs of air in the tires and went to the track.

At the Summit school, my crew (Gregg) was taking care of tire pressure. I have no idea what we were running (I think 34/36?), and I have not worried about it. At Nelson, I just slapped the tires on the car, making sure they had >32lbs of air in them and went out trying to keep the car on track despite the rain and snow.

I have made no adjustments whatsoever, figuring that I need to learn how to drive the damn thing, I'll worry about the finer points of car setup later. I talked to Lee about the initial setup of the shocks, and I have stuck to that.
I am busy enough keeping the car on the road while managing traffic, watching flags and try to go fast to worry about that last touch of terminal understeer, of the tendency of the car to want to oversteer in high speed turns.

The question is, at what point do I need to start worrying about silly things like tire pressures/temperatures, fine shock adjustments, that extra degree of camber, aero effects?

Just thinking aloud, which usually gets me in trouble.

 

This is what we did (not claiming its "right" but it worked for us.) First get yourself a binder or notebook take it with you to the track.
(btw this is Danielle, at this point I pretty much do all the adjusting at the track for Lyonel- ask him where his tire pressures, suspension, etc are set...he'll either look at me to answer, or look at my binder before he can answer.)

Start out by keeping an eye on tire pressure temps- at first just to see before/after session variences, mostly to make sure tire pressures not too high/low when you come in "hot." Just jot down the date, tire size/brand etc (if new or used), cold/hot pressures, track, & weather. Go ahead and record what the rest of your set-up was (even if you are running the same thing event after event at this point in time.) Also, if anything breaks or you have problems with something, etc write down too.

Other than that as you either make changes (adjust suspension, go to higher spring rates, run spacers etc) in future or have more access to data (ie someone takes pyrometer temps for you one weekend) jot it down. Also when there is a "change in anything" write down why you changed it with the appropriate session. Jot down too, how the car feels (oversteer, understeer, "crazy", great, etc) to you.

Another good idea, is whenever you have the chance to grab timing sheets, or someone w/ your lap times on a stop watch- whatever you can get, put these in your notebook/binder.

In the end what will happen is you ultimately will have a thick notebook/binder (I use a 3-ring w/ page protectors for timing/results sheets, & then can add in set-up/notes from weekend, separated into different tracks in chronological order, as well as keep track of dyno-sheets, log books, etc all in one place) with a plethora of real-data from you & your car at different tracks. From what I've seen over the past 5+ yrs, we are one of the few club racers that log all this info, but trust me you'll be glad you did.

This data is what helps us tremendously with set-ups now (that the driver is developed) at a track to track basis, with slightly different set-ups depending on the weather. Lots of stuff can happen in a weekend & while you always "think" you'll remember it, often you don't a year or so later. You'll end up with collected data, that if you look back will basically "tell you" how you want to set up the car, based on your driving there previously.

While it may or may not help you in the immediate for understanding how you want to set-up the car, it will be invaluable in a few yrs.
(We largely left everything untouched the first yr or so of racing, but recorded data anyway- mostly b/c I wanted to feel "useful" & thought by collecting/analyzing data I'd eventually understand everything more real-world than just book theory- it worked I can confidently adjust his car based on his feedback & temp/pressure/lap readings now.)

And I am glad that I started collecting data for his sessions from the onset, when you get to a point that you can use the collected data, well thats the point that you should "start worrying about silly things like tire pressures/temperatures, fine shock adjustments, that extra degree of camber, aero effects"

just my (really long- sorry) .02


Modified by Lyonel 13H4 at 2:48 PM 5/3/2005

 

Danielle is right about the notebook. Just start keeping it, even if you aren't actually going to make changes.

When I was doing the SRX-7 thing, I always told myself I'd worry about the setup details when I met two criteria...
1. My lap times were consistent (although I never defined 'consistent") throughout a weekend. I figured any minor changes in setup would be lost in the "noise" of my average driving.
2. I could hang with the fast guys for at least a lap at a time. When I started racing, Chip Herr, the Zalners, and Jim Thill would be around the carousel by the time I got to turn 5. I always figured there wasn't any point sweating the details until I was at least in the same ballpark.

You started racing with way more track experience than I did, so I'd bet you already have #1. Now, see how you do in a real race. If you're staying in the top quarter of the pack, on the lead lap, and you're fast lap isn't too much slower than the top guys, then go ahead and start fiddling with the setup.

All this assume that you actually want to tweak your setup. You may be perfectly comfortable leaving it as-is.

Now that I'm back into autocrossing, I've decided that until I start trophying at local events, I'm not spending a dime on the car. I'll get a basic alignment and that's it. No race tires, no shocks, no sway bar.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SJR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am busy enough keeping the car on the road while managing traffic, watching flags and try to go fast to worry about that last touch of terminal understeer, of the tendency of the car to want to oversteer in high speed turns.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

You answered your own question.
As long as the car is currently comfortable and not wearing anything out at an accelerated rate (tire wear is fairly even), just drive it.

Besides, with your current setup and cold tire pressures somewhere in the neighborhood of 35psi, you're pretty damned close anyway.
We put my Konis on the car 2 years ago and set them where Lee G. and Tom F. both suggested and haven't touched them again. Haven't needed to.
We make minor tire pressure adjustments based on the weather, and do little things like set everything at zero toe for the trip to Daytona, but otherwise its a matter of "Just drive the damned thing."

Scott, who knows the fiddling engineering types don't always agree, but I'll paraphrase Patrick Roy with "I cannot hear you, all of these trophies are clogging my ears."

 

So you have it, Sebastien, I had your pressuress for the Hoosiers set as follows:

LF: 32
RF: 33
Rear: 36

The Toyos were similar.

LF was set a smidge lower than RF due to the preponderance of right-hand turns at SPR, hence the tendency for LF to heat up a bit more. Those pressures were set just guessing and hoping that they'd all come off the track somewhere between 40-42psi hot. Although I know you have that pimpy pyrometer, I find it just as easy when you're all alone and have a lot of other stuff going on to simply look at how far down you're wearing the sidewalls. The R3S04's have a nice little "character line" at the very edge of the sidewall. If you're wearing below that you definitely need to be running a higher cold pressure. Other than that, adjust up or down to taste. Although I love a "loose" car, going w/ too low of pressures in the rear will really bite you in the *** as the car will be slip-sliding around if the rears don't come up to temp (hence my continued problems on the 1st lap of many races).

That said, I haven't made any shock changes since talking to Lee at my 1st race out w/ the new tub (Hyperfest '03). I greatly upped my pressures after I became more agressive (faster) behind the wheel and found that the low pressures that made me feel safe were detrimental to things like rotation and grip. Now I only make minor adjustments to tire pressures based on weather and right vs. left turns (front tires only).

If you need a hand, come grab me at your 1st MARRS race.

 

You "need" to worry about it when it becomes a hindrance to your driving success (however you define it).

If you are lucky enough at this point to have no major complaint - then keep on drivin till you do.

Once you start "having" to tweak to get a car that will do what you want you will notice that you have started driving around in circles and the fundamental nature of what you're doing (driving a car) has changed markedly.

Scott, who feels funny saying that you must get in touch with your feelings...and (wtf): "Use the Force"...

 

I am a believer that seat time is the most critical thing early on as your learning curve is steep in the beginning. I also beleive that having some basic information about how the car is doing is important as well so you know that you aren't leaving a great deal on the table or having some aspect of the car working against you.

Considering your experience already, I would say before long you will want to start keeping records at least of tire pressures and preferably tire temps as well. Even if you don't buy a pyrometer now, it would be good to have someone get some temps from your tires when fresh off the track to make sure that you don't have a problem with your alignment or air pressures. Unlike autocross which often does not get tires really hot, on an open track you can use that temp information to make sure that you are getting the most function out of them or to identify any problems.

Here is a file for a handy little 1/4 page notepad that I made up several years ago to keep record of your tire temps, tire pressures and shock adjustments. I ran out of budget to have them printed so we put it up on our site so people could make their own. Just print and cut them in quarters.
http://www.koni-na.com/pdf/pitpad.pdf

Since you have adjustable suspension parts like shocks, springs and lesser degree springs, use them to affect the handling balance of the car to be the way you want them. Don't adjust tire pressures to affect the balance of the car, adjust them to make them work to their maximum and use the other tools for the balance. Use the temps to confirm that the air and alignment are making the tires work their fullest. But taking temps and pressures does require a bit more of your crew so it may take you a little time to develop your crew and system to get it working.

Don't stress and thrash yourself getting info that you can't use but if you can work your wan into it then it can be helpful. But the biggest key is doing the driving and getting comfortable. When you have time and are more consistent, this is the logical next step forward.

 

thanks for all the valuable insights, ya'll. And thanks Gregg for reminding me what the pressures were.

After seeing Lee's handy-dandy form, I looked around on that durn interweb a bit and found this page:
http://www.turnfast.com/tech_p...shtml

I think that I like that format, and it will fit nicely in my current bulky 3-ring binder that I take to the track to hold the various paperwork that I carry:
- NASA stuff (license, logbook, event registration)
- SCCA stuff (same as above)
- car build (dyno sheets, receipts, installation instructions, etc)
- car setup (NEW: contains about 50 blank copies of the aforementioned form)
- trailer info (bill of sale, registration, etc.)
- scrap book (leftover stickers, picture CD, clipped articled, etc. )

I have also talked to a young mechanic I met at a local shop. He's all into swaps and turbos (daily drives a 300+hp civic/B18 turbo swap) and he seems very interested. he's a damn good mechanic, and I am trying to draft him as crew, and maybe bring him to the dark side...
Now all I need is ask him to gather the info at the track, especially tire temps (I do have a brand new pimpy, yet unused pyrometer) Maybe one day, I will use it.

Good thread, let's see if we can keep it going with more info from the seasoned racers out there.

 

We do it in a similar fashion as described above by Danielle and others. We set the car's alignment and shocks before each race to a baseline setup we have arrived at that works well. Depending on weather we set tire pressures at the beginning of each day. We usually take tire temps and pressure readings after the day's first session and make any small changes to tire pressures (sometimes shocks, sway bar, raise/lower coil overs) necessary to optimize the tires and the handling as much as possible. We record the initial baseline setup that the car has when it arrives at the track and also all the changes we make to it throughout the weekend. It's good to have a rain setup written down somewhere, too in case you need to use it. Probably the most important single thing that can be done is to check the alignment before a race weekend to make sure it's in line to what you want it at, as this can have a significant impact on the car's handling and braking and also tire wear. A bad alignment would also render any other adjustments useless.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Since you have adjustable suspension parts like shocks, springs and lesser degree springs, use them to affect the handling balance of the car to be the way you want them. Don't adjust tire pressures to affect the balance of the car, adjust them to make them work to their maximum and use the other tools for the balance. Use the temps to confirm that the air and alignment are making the tires work their fullest.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

BTW- when we are back on track, if you see us at an event- feel free to come & chat.
I'd be more than happy to take pyrometer, pressures, & lap times for you (or anyone else here who asks).
Also just to clarify- our adjustments are also very minor as well, & we only really began doing them once Lyonel was running consistent lap times & up front battling with the "fast guys".
(Danielle)


Modified by Lyonel 13H4 at 9:06 PM 5/4/2005


Modified by Lyonel 13H4 at 9:07 PM 5/4/2005

 

They're not kidding! Danielle and Lyonel are among the nicest people you will ever meet anywhere!

Jon

 

I would say if you let 5 good drivers do a couple of laps or so in your car and your time is faster than theres start to worry about it

 

thanks a lot for the offer, Danielle, I just may take you up on that. I don't think I will be back on track until July, unfortunately...