projectr13b

Hello. Sorry if this should be in the wheel or suspension forums, but it pertains to my track car and my first event in it potentially next month.

I drive a 97 EX coupe.

Modifications are:
Konig Heliums 15x6.5 ET 40.
Progress Technology Coilovers. Springs front and rear are 350/350
Moog replacement inner and outer tie rods and knuckle ball joint
Hardrace everything else up front
Stock EX sway bar and endlinks

Stripped interior, including sound deadening. Only thing left is the steering wheel, top half of the dash, door cards, both front seats, and the sunroof, which may be gone before the event.

Engine is a stock D16Y8. I've removed some unnecessary things like cruise control and the bottom half of the air box and washer fluid bottle.

I have been out letting my suspension settle and breaking in my new clutch and originally noticed on tight turns, my outside front wheel was rubbing on something. I recently noticed it's rubbing on higher speed turns as well. Left or right, doesn't matter. I've jacked it up and taken a look, but I can't figure out what it's rubbing on. My current guess is the outside fender, or the lip in the fender well near where the UCA sits. I still have the fender liners in and would like the keep them because I read some horror stories of people going off track and splattering mud and grass everywhere.

Along with this, I've noticed a bounciness to my suspension. Not like a stiff, hit a bump bounce, but like a rubbery bouncy ball bounce at the apex or exit of corners. It upsets the car a little bit. Not a lot but I've also only experienced at lower speeds. My concern is more getting on a track and having it happen, but then again, tracks are smoother than off ramps, but my local autoX area is also pretty rough, so losing that bounciness would be really helpful to putting down smooth runs.

Just curious if anyone has experienced these before, or has some setup advice.

Currently the car has a really bad alignment. I'm planning on taking it to get aligned in the next week, but was going to raise the car some if need be before hand. Currently I have about an inch of clearance between the outside fender and the top of the tire at it's highest point, give or take 1/8th of an inch. I plan on running -2.5 front camber and -1.5 rear. 0 toe. Nothing crazy since I'm still driving to and from events in the car right now.

Thanks for any advice. I'm very willing to cut, hammer, or modify to prevent rubbing, so no suggestions are too crazy. I just don't have a welder so cutting and welding is kind of a last resort. The bounce I'm fearing is more shock related than anything, but I'm still new to modified suspension, so hopefully I'm wrong and can semi-tune that out, at least for next season or so while I finish up some other things on the car.

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

First off... your spring rates are very soft for a track car. Coupled with your small swaybars, I'm sure this isn't helping with your rub. The easiest way to tell is to pull the wheel and look for the marks. your wheel fitment is fine unless you are running something over a 225 tire.

The bounce is going to be a bit more complex to figure out. It can be several things from what you describe...

1. it could be a combination of the soft springs and your body roll/sway bars (I used to have this with my 500/550 spring setup on konis)... essentially what could be happening is you are completely compressing the shock, spring, and bump stop and your rebound setting on the shock can control it.

2. related to above... it could be that you don't have enough travel and/or your bump stops are too big.

3. it could be blown shocks OR something binding in the suspension that is "letting go" at full compression. this could really be it since you noted it at slow speeds. put the car on jack stands, remove your wheels/tires, and remove your shocks... manipulate your suspension and see if anything binds, especially in the rear. Max out the rear compression, stick a jack under that arm and move the other side around. see what happens. the swaybar will limit movement but make sure it can move. lower the other arm about half and check it again. continue throughout the whole motion. if nothing seems to bind, look at your shocks.

4. Alignment does come into play.... not drastically, but it can. If you have toe out in the rear right now at static height it could cause you to have some issues. It wont be a bounce per say, but you might feel it as a bounce.

projectr13b

Thanks for all of the info! I was a little afraid the 350/350 spring rates would be a little low. I was originally going with 450/450 but they were out of stock, and at the time I was prepping for a track event I ended up not attending, so I needed all of the suspension stuff in long before the 450/450 springs would get to me. I'm coming from a bone stock Miata, so soft suspension and body roll are something I'm used to. Figure the 350s would hold me over for a while at least.

I did pull the wheels off and look for rub marks, but because of the limited amount it's happening, I don't think it's really leaving any. I've thought about doing something similar to the trick of puting chalk on the tire side walls to look for the point the sidewall is flexing, but instead chalk up my fender liners and see where it rubs off. I keep forgetting to buy any chalk though.

The front sway bar could definitely be coming into play. I'm still running the stock sway bar with stock endlinks, and hardrace sway bar bushings. Endlinks are out of stock every time I go to order them, so I've just been making due. I've thought about removing the front sway bar as well. I've read mixed reviews on having one so I figured I'd keep it and try a few evens with and without it to see if I have a preference.

Bump stops seem like a very likely culprit. I had to modify the rears to lower the back end of the car as the preset put it about an inch to and inch and a half taller than the front. The fronts are unmodified however and could definitely be part of the problem. I pulled the wheel off and tried jacking up the suspension with the shock installed to see if the UCA was hitting anywhere, but the car would start to lift off the jackstand before compressing the shock any really, so I couldn't get a good indication that way. On the ground the control arm is definitely tucked up into the fender some, but it's hard to get an idea of whether it's hitting anything or not.

Normal street driving is pretty tame, it's really only under hard cornering I'm getting these issues. I'll try some of the things you suggested and see if I can pinpoint the problem. The shop i plan to take it to for an alignment is pretty well versed in track setups for various cars, so I may have them take a look as well if I can't figure it out in my garage.

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

your spring rates are too low to remove the front sway bar for the track. it will make your deflection and rub worse.

with 350lbs springs you should be able to compress the suspension fully without lifting the car. there might be something wrong with the shock.

sjg88

do you have the stock struts? if so..might not be a bad idea to put them on and see if you still get rubbing (assuming they arent blown)

the spring rates shouldn't be an issue..im running 225/45 R7s on my DC2 when i hit the track and never had any issues with rubbing up front and im on stock suspension and swaybars

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

spring rates + lowering can be an issue.

also... stock spring rates and stick tires is a good way to damage your rear subframe. keep an eye on it.

sjg88

well, he said the fronts arent lowered (if i read it correctly) and he said the rears are sitting higher which could be the culprit


i was under the impression that using a stock sway bar would negate the need for a brace but i have been having some issues with loose bolts (and ive been tracking the car alot) but i think its due to an error on my part and not due to the extra grip ill keep an eye on it though.

KoRn_vIRuZ

What tire size are you running? Larger than stock tires will tend to rub if the car is lowered. 195/50 R15, 195/55 R15 or 205/50 R15 should be good. 195/50 R15 will minimize the chances of rubbing.
As for the bounce, sounds like your suspension is underdamped. Adjust the dampers if they're adjustable. I think that if you were hitting the bump stops it wouldn't be a soft bounce. It'd be a thud.

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

Springs too low. Sounds like your car is "stanced" you cant drive that on the track.
Not safely anyway.
Ride height is low.
As others have said there are other factors.
Id start there and make small changes to the rider height first.
Get those springs you originally wanted but were too impatient to wait to get.
What will your progress shocks handle anyway?
Springs rates can vary from track to track when you get more into racing.
I carry three different rates for front and rear, but its all dependent on the track I go to.
Everyone drives different, experience level is a big factor.
I've seen people over drive their car and think they are fast because it feels that way.
Knock it back a bit when you make your changes see if its also a third factor.... your driving.

boxedfox

Listen to this man. As blunt as he is, he speaks the truth.

projectr13b

Fronts and rears are lowered.

Running 205/50R15s on a 6.5 inch wheel. Suspension doesn't have any other adjustments than height adjustment. It actually used stock top hats so I ended up buying new OEM ones.

I don't think the car is necessarily "stanced" as you said. It's definitely lower than stock by probably 1.5 inches, but I can still easily get over speed bumps and things, so I'm not smashing my oil pan or scraping the frame. That all being said, ride height was one of my considerations for the the rub. I had actually raised the rear some a while back, but had left the fronts where they are. Fronts are set to the manufacturers recommendations for a 1.5 inch drop and seemed usable when I was first driving it afterwards, however that was all street driving. No issues casually driving around so everything seemed good, until I noticed the rub and bounce on tight corners. I've been taking it fairly easy on the car before as it just got a new clutch, so I was breaking that in.

I agree though, ride height still might be too low. This car is being built to have something safe and reliable to take to HPDEs and AutoX events, so, I want to make it known I'm not trying to take something that shouldn't be on the track out there. I've been running AutoX and a few time attacks in a stock Miata for 4 years before this, so I'm not a beginner driver, but I'm a beginner at driving the Civic, and maybe more importantly a modified Civic. So a lot of the nuances of setting up a modified car are still new to me. As for driving, I'm typically the type of driver who likes to start slow and work my way up. AutoX, usually my first 2 laps are slow and then I pick up speed from there. Same for the few track events I've done, first session or two, I take my time and learn the track some before I start pushing it.

I'm not sure what the Progress shocks can handle I did the best I could to research and these seemed like best compromise for where the car is at right now. Somewhere between trash and at minimum Koni Yellows and Ground Control springs. I'm on a fairly tight budget, so I've been trying to save money where I can without sacrificing quality too much. This car also is pushing 200k miles so all the rubber and ball joints and just about everything needed/needs replacing, and I didn't want to be going out on the track with all that stuff worn and deteriorated.

Here's the suspension I ordered. Based on their idea of the 350/350 set up it seemed ok. I was originally planning to go 550/550 or 450/550 but thought it may be too harsh since I'm still driving to and from events. Progress actually sells their springs separately, so if I were to keep using them, I could actually pick up a set for the front and rear to replace the 350/350 ones.

Here's a picture of how it sits currently. I realize it's not much of an indicator of height or where rubbing could occur or anything, but maybe it will be semi useful for telling me if at the very least it's sitting significantly too low or not. Thanks for the continued help. Hopefully the extra info helps some.

sjg88

you can get 800 lb springs from progress but when you go on their website to order their struts the max you can get is a 550f/650r setup

that being said...from their website

https://progressauto.com/products/sfID1/133

boxedfox

The photo is helpful, and yes, that is actually on the low side. We run similar ride heights on our race cars and we use spring rates that are several times stiffer than what you're running.

killerpenguin21

agreed. that looks like my front ride height using a 1000lb spring

KoRn_vIRuZ

I don't think that's too low at all. If you have at least 300 mm from the center of the wheel to the fender you should be good. My EK is at a similar height to yours (if anything, it's lower), has very soft springs and I don't rub anywhere during road driving or HDPE. But I run 195/50 R15 tires (on 15x7 +40 wheels), which are a little smaller.
You can try loosening the spring, jacking the wheel up to the bump stop and inspecting for rubbing.

projectr13b

Thanks! I hadn't seen that. When I picked them I knew they'd be a stepping stone so I wasn't expecting them to be amazing, but most people claimed them to be a solid choice. Build quality seems solid, but they definitely feel more like they are for street use.

Thanks. Do you have a recommendation for upping the spring rates. Should I maybe do 550/550 or something similar. On my Miata I preferred a little bit of oversteer, but I know oversteer is a whole different ball game in a FWD car. I've only done a few events in a FWD car and it was my stock Mazdaspeed 3, which is great on the track, but it's still a road car, full interior, stock suspension with just some stickier tires.


Thanks for the advice. I'll measure and see how it looks. I haven't had a chance to get out and check or change anything just yet.

iwannarace

I'm running the cs2 with 550f/700r, stock sways, on an integra gsr that sees more track time than street time. They are a solid choice. Are you opposed to rolling fenders? With extended top hats the shock has plenty of travel and the ride is quite decent. Maybe roll fenders and extend top hats?

projectr13b

Thanks for the advice and suggestions. I'm definitely not opposed to rolling the fenders. I figured it would be needed eventually. The car was underwater at one point in to from flooding, so I'm open to any cutting, hammering or rolling needed. It's can't get more broken than it was when I first started working on it. I'll have to look into extended top hats. I went with new OEM ones when I got the coilovers. Thinking at this time I may only need fronts if that's the case as the rear is good. I think the combination of it being really high after the install and having 0 weight in the back probably helps. Not sure how the lack of weight would effect spring rate choices though.


I have a spare tire bolted down in the back and the fuel pump cover on and the tail light harness ran, otherwise rear interior looks like this.

Only difference in the front is the auto shifter is gone as it's a manual now. Door cards are going soon. Going to run LRB Speed ones for the time being.

iwannarace

Did you remove sound deadening or just paint over it?

projectr13b

Removed, then ground off any remaining debris. then I can primed and painted and cleared it. It came out great up until I drove it twice and then I realized white was a stupid plan and it really needs to be sprayed with better paint. It's fine for now though. I plan to redo it in a dark gray in the future, but I got a lot more that needs to be done before that. I still have the AC stuff right now, but AC is getting removed in the future. Leaving heat in for now.

battle951sedan

iTrader: (4)

Surprised no one has mentioned about the spine underneath the frame rails. Pretty sure that's what is rubbing against the middle of the tire under hard cornering with soft springs. Need to hammer that flat.

projectr13b

I saw that and was wondering if that was what they were rubbing on. Can you just hammer it flat? Does it cause any kind of structural issues?

KoRn_vIRuZ

For that to happen with standard diameter tires you'd need to be letting the suspension compress more than the stock suspension would, which is pretty weird. Maybe the coilovers weren't properly engineered and have too much travel. Again, moving the suspension through its travel with the spring removed will uncover such issues, if they exist.

battle951sedan

iTrader: (4)

If the bumpstops on those progress coilovers are shorter than stock then its possible. If you have aftermarket UCAs they might even be hitting the shock towers with them soft springs.
I'd check that spine and clearance that area anyway.
Best way to do it is make cuts 2-3 inches apart and hammer it flat and reinstall fender liners.

projectr13b

Super late update on this. Got busy/lazy over winter and didn't really get to do much to fix this, up until recently when I took it to be tech inspected for a track day just to see what needs to be fixed to get out on the track.

Turns out my tie rods never seated in the knuckle, cause the wheel to wobble back and fourth. I had noticed it often felt a little loose at higher speeds but had figured it was an issue with the alignment since I haven't gotten one yet. At the tech inspection they noticed it and we threw some washers under the knuckle to prevent them from moving around. It now doesn't rub except on very, very hard cornering, which is likely due to the combination of low + soft springs. So, problem solved for now. I need a new power steering rack because mine is dumping fluid out everywhere, so I'm not hitting the track until I pick one up and have time to install it, but at least I know why my car was rubbing.

Figured I'd update in case this happens to someone else. I used OEM Moog replacement outer and inner tie rods, and they are mounted to the OEM knuckle so I'm not sure why they didn't seat properly. Needed a 2-3mm thick washer to fix the issue.Could have tightened the nut down to that point, but then the castle nut would have been way above the cotter pin. Not sure if that would have been a better solution or not. I may go with new Hardrace tie rods, or just buy some OEM ones to see if they sit right. I may have just gotten unlucky.

Thanks for all of the suggestions again everyone. I still plan to roll fenders and hammer in weld points and all the other good stuff to insure I don't have issues while on the track or AutoXing as well. seems like it's just a good idea to knock all of that stuff out while I'm fixing the steering rack.