getfast

Okay, it's late, and it's time for a slightly abstract - but extremely important - inquiry during which I pose the question:


"What are the elements of a 'perfect' track event?"


I mean, specifically, a high performance driving school on a road course, a la Car Guys or NASA or BMWCCA or THSCC or whoever else. I'm not talking about things like great weather or a car that doesn't break, but things relating to whoever is putting on the event specifically.

The reason I ask, to put it bluntly, is because there is a potentially huge/incredibly fun event at VIR in early December, and Honda318dx and I are some of the people making it happen. We are part of the group standing between disaster and perfection at this event, essentially.

So, I want to know EXACTLY what we can do to make it the single best event everyone in this part of the world has ever seen. Not because we need the help to keep it from being a disaster, but because we *want* to make sure every base is covered and everything goes off as perfectly as possible. I ask the question here (and only here) because this is the single best resource I can name. There is no more intelligent and insightful group of road course junkies on a public message board that I know of.

Already, the framework is in place on the website. Specifically, this page: http://www.speedtrialusa.com/vir.htm

The schedule is on there, offering 110 minutes of seat time per group per day. (We ran a very similar schedule at SP-JC last month and it worked, so we are planning to do it again for this event.) That is a LOT of time - 2x25min and 2x30min sessions per group per day is exhausting, IMHO.

Four groups will be offered - beginner, intermediate, advanced, and instructor. Same as "usual". Furthermore, the price is right - $275 for both days is a great deal for that amount of track time. In fact, I'll venture the statement that it is the "dollar per minute of seat time" deal of the year on the full course at VIR (well known as one of the finest, fastest, and most technical road courses anywhere in the country). It comes out to about $1.25 per minute, which sounds like a lot to the uninitiated but is really a bargain compared to a half-dozen other programs I can name offhand.

So I will lead into the subject with this:

For me, the perfect event is one that is done professionally. A Car Guys or Cobetto-and-Politi-era-NASA event runs like clockwork, with the best people possible in control. Yes, those same folks will answer any questions and joke and BS with you in paddock or grid, but underneath they are nail-bitingly concerned about making the event as safe, fun, and efficient as humanly possible.

The perfect event is one at which the schedule is followed closely, the instructors are skilled, and everyone understands "the program".

The perfect event is one at which the tow truck sits parked all day long because all the drivers put their egos aside and came to learn and did so, with humility.

The perfect event is one at which everything is thought out fully in advance, and there are no surprises. But I'm biased.

There are a billion more things I can think of, but I want to know what everyone else thinks instead! Essentially, this is your opportunity to tell the event staff what they can do to make a potential weekend blissfully amazingly wonderful.

PS- This is not really a loaded question. Yes, we want our event to be perfect, but I'm hoping that this topic will benefit anyone interested in making their club's own events better as well. More great events means more fun for everybody, and at the end of the day, that's what we are all here for.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts,

Jon



[Modified by nojrecar, 2:24 AM 10/17/2001]

urbanlegend21

I would suggest putting the schedule down on paper and running all the variables that might adjust it and see if it still works.

Willard

Having the "rules" (passing zones/behavior expectations/etc.) set forth way in advance and having the participants know them (and follow them)… is a large part of a good/safe event.

Having one or two persons in charge (with-in radio reach at all times) that will "decisively" decide/rule on any “issue” that may arise.


The last SpeedTrial event went well... but could have been a bit better. IMO
Several times the decision-making was done at the track during the day (in the class room?!) and then the new rules were implemented after that.

The rules (term uses loosely... how about “the "protocol" that needs to be adhered to”) must be:
-set up before hand
-explained to everyone
-understood by everyone
-severely enforced
-have grave consequences if not followed.

See you all there.

William
-who thinks that more people will have stuff to say

urbanlegend21

that is what I wanted to say but being a newbie in driving schools I didn't know if it was my place, but William said it perfectly soooooo.......ditto!

r2x

The last SpeedTrial event (February) at VIR would have been a complete cluster if not for the rain that kept the numbers down. As it was, it was only a partial cluster.

(1) Do NOT decide rules in the drivers meeting Saturday AM. The organizers should know how they want the event to run. This is not a democracy.

(2) Have a printed up schedule. (remembering quiet hours Sunday from 11-12)

(3) Have a printed list of who has which students. I personally really like the "index cards" that Car Guys does. This makes it easy to remember who I have for students. I keep them in my pocket.

(4) If the organizers (from CA) are going to drive in "any group they want to", as an instructor, I'd prefer for them to have some basic knowledge of the line if they are going out in the beginner group. I was behind one (unknowingly) with my student in February, and they were --SO-- far off line I had my student back off since I thought it was a signed off beginner without a clue. I then went and talked to the main CA guy, and he said... oh, that's so-and-so... don't worry about him; he knows what he's doing. Yeah well... the way the guy was driving, he didn't have a clue and needed an instructor. IMO, only beginners should be running in beginner group.

(5) STAY AS CLOSE TO ON SCHEDULE AS POSSIBLE!!!

Just my $.02 worth.

MaddMatt

Organization. Or at least the appearance of.

4doorH22

You can never have too many scantily clad women.

r2x

Oh grow up... this is a serious issue.

Crack Monkey

My single biggest concern is having enough workers and instructors.

Enough workers so there is at least one at each station. It scares the crap outta me to go to some events that have one worker at not-quite-every station. I guess I've been pampered by MARRS races, where there are as many workers on station as drivers on track.

Enough instructors so that there are a few extra. It never hurts to have a few extra standing around to answer questions, help newbies, etc. At ST/JC, I didn't have time to "debrief" students after a session, as I was required in the very next session. Beginners in particular often need a debriefing. Also, instructors really should have shirts or something to make them easily identifiable (BSR they all wear red shirts).

r2x

Shirt idea is a good one. Though I'd pick something other than red, cause as a driver, I hate to see a red shirt near the track. My first thought is always "red flag".

B18CXr

The workers @ VIR are top notch....no questions asked! never doubt it. done deal.

First rule, is to have the pit out/control person be as much of an A hole as possible when it comes to enforcing the rules!!!!! The person who controls pit out and/or control is the god of the track as far as enforcement is concerned. If a driver has problems with the pit out worker------> send them to the person who they wrote their check to weeks in advance for the school (i.e. the Speedtrails boss) plan and simple.

The first SP VIR event was a crab shoot but somehow got off the ground fine. Make sure they have a finite plan as to where and how passing will be conducted and who is in total charge of the school.

Otherwise, I plan to raise hell in the uphill esses.

speedracer33

I remember that being an issue at Summit Point last year. There was a person standing at the end of the start/finish tower wearing a bright yellow rain coat. After one session, they told her that she had to get a different coat, and she came back out wearing a red one. Great....

Matt

speedracer33

I would say that one major factor would be really drilling it into the students to give passing signals at the FIRST available area. I think that this one stupid little thing is the biggest source of frustration on the track, and leads to dangerous overtaking and road (track) rage.

I most certainly agree that you need enough instructors so that they aren't out in every student group. If there are three groups, instuctors should only have students in two. Give them a chance to talk to students, and work on their own car as well. NEVER do one instructor for two cars in the same session. I've had to do that a few times and it is horrible. Just when you get one person into a groove, you have to hop out. Not to mention that they can't increase speed when they have to keep the other person's car on their bumper. Very frustrating for both the driver and instructor.

I personally think that the way NASA-VA handles the changing of run groups (using the pace car when the last car of the previous run group goes past) is brilliant and should be LAW at any driver's ed event.

How about flexibility in terms of run groups? Meaning if there is a very fast driver in Intermediate, move them up to Advanced immediately. On the same note, a slow car in Advanced should be demoted. Any overly poor driving in Intermediate should cause a demotion and mandatory classroom time. Having the cars in the right groups sets up some great competition, and THAT is what I enjoy most of all. I love finding a car/driver that is evenly matched to me and just running with them the whole time. You don't get that if the groups are not set correctly, and I hate it when the organizer's ego is too large to admit a mistake and move the person the the right group. A couple of years ago that happened to my friend Dave at a PCA event. They accidentally put him in novice though he had run intermediate the year before and was the second fastest car in the session. It was just a clerical error, no big deal. They made him stay in green for a whole day before they moved him to blue. It ruined the whole weekend for him, because he was so mad that he had to stay in green when it was painfully obvious he didn't belong there, that he couldn't even enjoy the second day when he was where he belonged.

Matt

SJR

I understand it may not be practical, but I think that NOT overworking the instructors would be great. As Crack Monkey mentioned, some students like to be de-briefed, and some instructors like to de-brief students. It is really hard to get a chance a talk to your instructor when he/she has to go to another student right after your session, then has some free time while you are in class and ends up on the track for his/her driving session when you get out of class. That seems to be way the last 2 NASA events I went to were setup. Mind you, I had a great time and loved it, but my instructor last time commented on how he would have preferred to have some time to talk about things out of the car, and how exhausted he was towards the end of the day.
I don' t know what the solution is other than having more instructors - and I know good instructors don't grow on trees, well, unless it is planted in macadam, and watered with race fuel...

I definitely second the idea of a printed schedule, one that can be adhered to (NASA did an examplary job of that at the JC event in september, IMO). It makes it very easy for the students (and instructors, I would imagine) to know where they need to be and when.

And having pre-defined rules, strictly enforced, is a must. I can't think of anything scarier than some yahoo in a Viper doing stupid **** on a racetrack, and getting away with it.

Oh yeah, and emphasizing that drivers and instructors need to keep an eye in the mirror if possible to give the point by. Out of my whole 3 events (oooh, such experience....) 1 had a train problem, and the other 2 did not. I really enjoyed the ones without the trains...

From an instructor safety point of view, not allowing non-rollover protected convertibles... As a matter of fact, I would personally think twice about being in the intermediate group in any car (hard top or otherwise) without rollover protection. Maybe that's just me though.

Finally, having a good tech inspection is critical. I had a different person inspect my car at each of my 3 NASA events, and they all had a different level of depth of inspection. It went from just making sure the battery was tight and the wheel bearings OK to actually checking inside for floor mats and garage door openers. To make things smoother for tech, it would be nice if everybody got their cars there on time (or allow more time for it)... Nobody wants to have to rush through tech and end up losing a wheel on the track - worse yet, having to dodge somebody else's wheel! I'm all for an extremely **** tech person(s).

that's all I can think of.
Jealous of ya'll that are going.

speedracer33

I think this is an excellent idea - one that NASA should look into very seriously. If they want to allow non-rollover protected cars, that is fine. However, I think that any driver who will be using an instructor should be required to have rollover protection.

Well, that is the decision of the driver for their own safety. I probably waited longer than I should have before I put a roll bar in my Prelude, and even though I'm not tracking it anymore, I still don't want to take it out. We spend so much $ on suspension, tires, brakes, exhausts, etc - why do so many ignore safety as a legitimate racing expense? Out of everything, the driver is the only thing that can't be replaced...

Matt

Willard

"VIR" did not allow S2000's/Boxters/etc. on track this past weekend for CarGuys. FWIW.

Willis

SJR

When I was talking about the intermediate group, I was thinking about the instructors as well. If I were an instructor, I don't know if I'd want to climb into the car of an intermediate driver without a rollbar. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that intermediate drivers may be at the most dangerous stage. As a novice, you are generally going a bit slow, still learning everything, and trying not to be overwhelmed. By the time you get to be an intermediate, you know enough to be dangerous, to use a cliche. The speeds go up, but the skills are not up to snuff yet.
Anyway, that has been my experience with several activities anyway (motorcycle riding, rock climbing, roller blading, etc.), I may be way off base here. I just know that I won't get on a another track until my car gets a rollbar - even if I still get to be in the novice group for another couple of events, I went fast enough on the main Summit Point track last time I was there that I was wishing for a roll bar - 'cause let's face it: I still don't really know WTF I'm doing and if anything goes wrong, I'd like to live to learn from my mistakes and I would have a hard time living with myself if I got my instructor hurt.

getfast

GREAT COMMENTS ALL!!!!

Please keep them coming!

Thanks again,

Jon
who is taking notes
and has printed out every post so far

Honda318dx

Taking Notes as well.

About the fella from speedtrial in the sping, driving the subaru.. I believe he is a "drifter".. I know you have heard of it, the guys that "like" to slide sideways around the track.. that is why his lines were so screwed up.. Not trying to defend here, just letting you know what he was up too..

Instructors should have a much easier time this go around.. There will be 1 novice and 1 intermediate.. Those are the only groups in which instructors will be instructing, and we will try to space them out... At JC earlier, we had 3 instructor groups because we had SO many novices and intermediates, that won't happen again..

Keep them comming, thanks fellas..

speedracer33

No you are not wrong. Statistically there are many more incidents in Intermediate for the exact reason you mentioned. They are good enough to go fast, but don't have the skill level that they THINK they have. The reason for the comments that I made above was just the simple premise that they can do what they want provided they are only putting themselves at risk. Passenger = roll over protection.

Matt

SJR

all right, I see what you mean, and agree. So I should have phrased it this way: "If the organization that holds the school is going to require that an instructor be in the car with an intermediate driver (as I believe NASA does), then maybe it should also require rollover protection, or give the instructor the option to not get in the car (make is a follow the leader kinda thing)."
Then again, I guess it is kind of overkill since so far nobody has been hurt in the NASA-VA schools, and they don't require the rollbars (but once is all it takes...) It must just be me getting security anxious in my older, parental age... Becoming mortal's a bitch, you know?

speedracer33

As far as I know, the instructor always has the option not to ride with a student if they feel their safety is at risk. I know that I have had one student that I refused to ride with again after one session.

If we are talking about safety, we should be as proactive as possible. Yes, NASA-VA has not had an injury yet, but just last year a student died in a wreck at a BSR event. If it can happen to them, it can happen to us. Fortunately, there was no passenger in the car at the time, and no, there was no rollbar in the car.

Matt

johng

[QUOTE]I would say that one major factor would be really drilling it into the students to give passing signals at the FIRST available area. I think that this one stupid little thing is the biggest source of frustration on the track, and leads to dangerous overtaking and road (track) rage.[QUOTE]

This is a biggie. I'm placed in Intermediate groups and I find that the higher horsepower cars don't like to give a little Civic the wave-by. Nothing is more frustrating than being nose-to-tail through the corners (and actually being held up), and then seeing them pin it down the straights. Lapping days are not "race" days Let the car on your *** go by and learn from them, no matter what kind of car it is. ~end rant~

Somebody else's idea of having the rules and the run schedule printed out beforehand is great. This way people know what to expect, and when they'll be running.

John - who's also jealous of the east coast'ers

Crack Monkey

Way OT - john - what car is pictured in your "avatar" space?

johng

Dunno...somebody's FV. I was taking pictures at SIR and this one turned out really good. It's on my computer as a background also. If it's mis-representitive, I'll change it.

The rest of the pictures are at these following links;
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Album...a=13759673&f=0
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Album...a=13763651&f=0

John - who loves taking pictures



[Modified by johng, 1:21 PM 10/17/2001]