<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mike-y &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you could try putting a softer spring up front, and/or reducing the damping. this will allow the front end to grip more and reduce understeer.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Would the back shocks be able to handle the front rates though, since they aren't valved for them?

 

I emailed tein about this, and they said I could give the Basic +2k to each front and rear springs. Put the 10k up front and get some 12k for the rear.

I sold them basics, btw.

 

Hell, the OEM alignment specs call for up to -1.0 degrees camber. That's a major part of the problem. You reduce understeer considerably with more front camber.

You can also:

Reduce rear camber (if you haven't already done so)
Reduce rear tire pressures (drop pressures to get rotation - go as low as mid 20's on Azenis if necessary)
Reduce front shock stiffness (start low and adds clicks one by one until you feel more understeer, then go back to the setting you didn't get an increased push with)
Increase rear shock stiffness - don't go too high though, you'll get snap oversteer at higher speeds.
Reduce front tire pressures - 50 is insanely high for Azenis, you never need more than 40 up front on a Teg, 38-39 should be the max ever.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IntegraBoy04 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yea...I figured the camber was too low as it is set for daily driving..But I didn't have time to get it set differently.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

Most coilover companies sell front stiff coilovers because they don't know you. They don't know how you drive or what you are going to do with your car. So they sell their setups with a lot of understeer because an understeering car is much safer then an oversteering car.

Because you autocross a FWD car you need a lot more oversteer and reversing your spring rates will help with that a lot.

As for tire pressures, both the people on the board and the people you talked to are correct. To reduce the traction of the rear tires you just have to run them at a non-optimal tire pressure. If you go over the rear end will feel darty and if you go under the rear end will feel spongy.

You also mentioned that on the 712s you had more oversteer. You have to remember that when you switched to the Azenis the front and rear grip of your car increased but it sounds like the rear more then the front, resulting in understeer. At this point you can regain oversteer by either increasing the front grip or reducing the rear grip.

 

Where you at VTECH YOo, are those palm trees in the background...if they are then you don't have to worry about cold pavement, if they aren't then....well... driving around here this time of year is like having tires made of ceeeement

Chris- who hates to drive on cold road corses with cold tires


Modified by B18C5 EH at 10:07 AM 1/21/2005

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
YOu could also have the front stiffer then the rear, with a big sway in the back and then really rely on your alignment settings and tire pressure to get the car to rotate.</TD></TR></TABLE>
or just run a really small front bar instead of the OEM one.. will help with rotating the rear..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5 EH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Where you at VTECH YOo, are those palm trees in the background...if they are then you don't have to worry about cold pavement, if they aren't then....well... driving around here this time of year is like having tires made of ceeeement

Chris- who hates to drive on cold road corses with cold tires


Modified by B18C5 EH at 10:07 AM 1/21/2005</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm in Texas...so I don't really worry about cold pavement that much.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by typer_801 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You can also:

Reduce rear camber (if you haven't already done so)
Reduce rear tire pressures (drop pressures to get rotation - go as low as mid 20's on Azenis if necessary)

Reduce front tire pressures - 50 is insanely high for Azenis, you never need more than 40 up front on a Teg, 38-39 should be the max ever.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't have a rear camber kit yet..
20s?? That's seems really low..I always thought more pressure got you more traction.

Also...if I switched the rates...would it still be ok for road racing?? I plan on going to a road racing beginners class in a couple of months.

 

oh, i can't resist. to add some confusion to the mix....

i run stiffer front springs then rear springs.

i run a larger then stock front swaybar.

i run my front shocks at full stiff. (not only that, but i've specifically had the shocks valved as stiff as the body allows in rebound)

my car oversteers in slaloms and is loose on corner entry. it's loose mid-corner. it's neutral on corner exit. i have an open diff and i experience no problems with wheelspin. if you want a fun project, try to figure THAT out. i think i'm on the right track with a solution, but you wouldn't beleive what i think the solution is. the solution? stiffer rear springs. i might have to dial out a little more rear camber to free her up again, but i can live with that... (arguably, the problem may also be solved with stiffer front springs but that would hurt overall grip way too much)

that said, i'll quote something lee grimes said to me while we were talking about shock valving. "if you try hard enough, you can convince yourself of just about anything" (or something to that effect) i hope to get some better instrumentation into the car and a hard copy of what the maniac behind the wheel is doing. with that i may find that my assumptions and conclusions were way off base. at which point i'll be able to say to myself, "damn, you must be one hell of driver to go as fast as you do with such a horrible setup!" frankly, it's a win - win situation!

nate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">oh, i can't resist. to add some confusion to the mix....

i run stiffer front springs then rear springs.

i run a larger then stock front swaybar.

i run my front shocks at full stiff. (not only that, but i've specifically had the shocks valved as stiff as the body allows in rebound)

my car oversteers in slaloms and is loose on corner entry. it's loose mid-corner. it's neutral on corner exit. i have an open diff and i experience no problems with wheelspin. if you want a fun project, try to figure THAT out. i think i'm on the right track with a solution, but you wouldn't beleive what i think the solution is. the solution? stiffer rear springs. i might have to dial out a little more rear camber to free her up again, but i can live with that... (arguably, the problem may also be solved with stiffer front springs but that would hurt overall grip way too much)

that said, i'll quote something lee grimes said to me while we were talking about shock valving. "if you try hard enough, you can convince yourself of just about anything" (or something to that effect) i hope to get some better instrumentation into the car and a hard copy of what the maniac behind the wheel is doing. with that i may find that my assumptions and conclusions were way off base. at which point i'll be able to say to myself, "damn, you must be one hell of driver to go as fast as you do with such a horrible setup!" frankly, it's a win - win situation!

nate</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yup, you just confused the hell out of me....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">.... "if you try hard enough, you can convince yourself of just about anything" </TD></TR></TABLE>


Scott, who hasn't anything to add to perfection like that.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">oh, i can't resist. to add some confusion to the mix....
</TD></TR></TABLE>

i think you're trying for a position as a contributing author on scott's "Pocket Racecar Engineering" book..

I am quite surprised your car is that loose with the bigger front bar.. i'm assuming, based on what you said about the shocks, you dialed it all out with dampning and alignment? may i ask what your alignment settings are?

 

my setup ususally is

full stiff rear
almost full soft front
35psi front, 45psi rear with falken azenis

 

Nate: How muck rake are you running. I have been experimenting with raising the rear of the car and finding small changes have been making huge differences.

IntegraBoy04: You also have to be careful when talking about handling characteristics on the web. Everyone definition of "oversteer" and "understeer" is different. Some people claim their car oversteers when I would say it still understeers.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RineRacing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nate: How muck rake are you running. I have been experimenting with raising the rear of the car and finding small changes have been making huge differences.

IntegraBoy04: You also have to be careful when talking about handling characteristics on the web. Everyone definition of "oversteer" and "understeer" is different. Some people claim their car oversteers when I would say it still understeers.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well when I'm coming through the corners and my wheels is turned and the car just slides straight...that is understeer, right.

 

Dan GSR runs about what I do.

Try this, it'll cost you nothing:

Remove front strut tower brace. Place it in the trash can.
Front pressure~32-35 psi
Rear pressure ~5 more than that
Full soft (or almost) up front
Full stiff in the rear.

No money spent, and I *garuntee* less understeer.

Also, Azenis get greasy and get real vague when they get HOT. I always carry a garden sprayer full of ice water to spray the front tires.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IntegraBoy04 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I think I've driven in 6 events. I went slow in fast out, but always in the middle of the corner it understeered really bad, also in the U-turn at the end of the run it was crazy bad. I didn't have either at full stiff. I had the front at 9 and the rear at 7. And I had 5 more psi in the front tires than the back.</TD></TR></TABLE>

do the opposite...

more pressure in the rear
set the rear dampening higher than the front

or remove front sway bar and keep current dampening and tire pressures

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MaddMatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Try this, it'll cost you nothing:

Remove front strut tower brace. Place it in the trash can.
Also, Azenis get greasy and get real vague when they get HOT. I always carry a garden sprayer full of ice water to spray the front tires.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why take the strut off and throw it away? It doesn't help at all?
Next autocross, I'll try the water thing.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IntegraBoy04 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Well when I'm coming through the corners and my wheels is turned and the car just slides straight...that is understeer, right.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, no one will argue that but the point I was trying to make is that when people advise you that their setup "oversteers" just remember that they may have a different view of how much oversteer is "oversteer".

For example, if a car pushes mildly in 3 turns and the backend steps out half an inch on 1 turn some people would say their car understeers when I would call that understeering.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IntegraBoy04 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Well when I'm coming through the corners and my wheels is turned and the car just slides straight...that is understeer, right.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yep. it is.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RineRacing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Some people claim their car oversteers when I would say it still understeers.</TD></TR></TABLE>

but.. this can still happen due to driving style. Trying to make Robert Carpenter's CRX work for me, his words stick in my head "We all set up our cars to our own idiosyncrasies" I tend to set up a car very loose, so sometimes i get in someones car that they say is "loose" and think, "my god this is a dump truck"

One thing you will notice is people have all kinds of different setups here.. listen to the ones that are general. The really weird ones (you know who you are) are probably setting up for their driving style, or playing either end of the handling spectrum.

Quick handling spectrum/bell curve example.. any adjustments have two "ends" very often each "end" will cause the same behavior. Most simple example, tires. Too much pressure and the tire expands losing its contact patch, which means less grip, and that that tire will break loose sooner. Too little pressure will cause the tire to roll over, and the sidewall doesn't grip, so now that tire is sliding as well.. same behavior.. two different ends of the adjustment.

So.. get your car aligned, take off the front strut tower brace, (sell it on ebay to a ricer for entry fee $) set the shocks even, set the tires even.. say.. 35/35 or 36/36 or something. (since they are new tires and you will want to get a new baseline)

Then you can increase or decrease front pressure as needed, increase or decrease rear pressure as needed, soften or stiffen the front shocks as needed, soften or stiffen the rear shocks as needed. (OBTW try to drive hard, but as consistant as you can)

Then come back and talk to us once we know a better set of circumstances.

One more note.. make small adjustments. Yes this process might take 2-3 autocrosses before you get the car "right" then you can start to make even smaller adjustments to make the car fit your style, and in a couple of years you get to PM Lee and ask "what kind of custom valving should i have?"

Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com

 

Why get rid of the strut bar though??

 

because in a FWD car, your engine and tranny is a pretty good strut bar. And.. a strut bar stiffens the front even more, which generally leads to more understeer.

If you do some looking around you can see where we not only want the front end softer, but some of use totally remove front sway bars even.

Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by racerjon1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">because in a FWD car, your engine and tranny is a pretty good strut bar. And.. a strut bar stiffens the front even more, which generally leads to more understeer.

If you do some looking around you can see where we not only want the front end softer, but some of use totally remove front sway bars even.

Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ok, thanks.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by racerjon1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">because in a FWD car, your engine and tranny is a pretty good strut bar. And.. a strut bar stiffens the front even more, which generally leads to more understeer.
http://www.seat-time.com</TD></TR></TABLE>

The strut bar braces the upper mounting points for the front suspension reducing any deflection of the suspension geometry (I do admit I don't know if there is much deflection w/o the brace but I figure if Honda put one there then there should be one there). I would adjust other parts of the car to dial out understeer before removing suspension bracing.

BUT (and it's a big but) I strongly suggest you try it and get first hand experience at it. If it works for you, great.

 

jeremy, iirc i have about .25" of rake. it's not something i've played with, but yes it could change corner entry a bit. the whole roll center bit. of course, with stiffer springs the rear of car won't pitch up as much making my dynamic roll center more predictable....

i think our OP is starting to get the picture. EVERYONE has their own opinion on how to setup a car. i've based my setup on conversations with daddio, gendron, and sawyer and a lot of reading of smith, ortiz, etc. my setup is very specialized for what i'm trying to do. if i tried a 450 front spring and no front bar the car would suck horribly. if i was restricted in ride height like an IT car, i'd probably do something different.

not a chance for a contributing author gig with that ACME fruit. i'm totally AGAINST the z-bar, at least when connected between wheels on the same axle pair. when connected diagonally across the chassis a z-bar becomes infinitely more useful.

nate

 

is Wile E. Coyote going to have a section on strut bars in his book? *hint*

nate